Gun Control

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Betsy
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Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

So I hardly have the time to really get into any topic, but this one is a hot one as of late, and I've got some popcorn here...

My stance has grown to be pretty pro gun control. As in, I didn't think it was needed so much in the past but now there is a huge problem and it just might require some sacrifice of our beloved 2nd Amendment right (who am I kidding? Gun lovers care more about their guns than the 2nd amendment).

I am probably too passionate about this subject but I'm also kindof like, hey, sorry I just don't want any more people getting killed?

Also, I am certain that the argument for strengthening families is going to come up. And I don't discount that AT ALL. But that is pretty close to the argument that guns don't kill people, people kill people, and that doesn't really affect my stance. At all. In America there are about 112 guns per 100 people. Guns are everywhere and they make it super easy for people to commit homicide/suicide.

So if anyone has any new ideas, I'm ready to hear them.
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Edward
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Edward »

I have always been strongly in support of gun control, but as Ian has made clear, it is dangerous to disarm the people wholesale, and it does, I acknowledge, strip them of property rights - and if you can deprive them of one kind of property, you can deprive them of others, and that is a slippery slope. So my stance has changed in the past while. If we can take people's guns, what else can we take away? Also, if you take away firearms, that won't actually stop the violence happening nowadays. People killed each other just as often (if not more so) in, say, the middle ages, and back then they had nothing but knives and crossbows. If they can't do it with guns, they'll just do it with something else. There have been stabbings as well as shootings of late.

That said, I do hate seeing how easy it is for people to get them, and unlike, say, a bow and arrow, any idiot can misfire a gun and hurt or kill somebody. They are innately more dangerous than other forms of weaponry. But I feel woefully under-informed to be saying anything about this matter in the first place. :(
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Tuly
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Tuly »

So I'm a New Yorker who is against gun control :scared: I don't want guns in my home but I don't feel I should take the agency of someone else from purchasing a gun. Violence has existed as long as I have been a live and yes it is getting worse because of the decay of families and increase of media promoting violence as entertainment. There are children who watch violent shows and play violent video games, and laugh when they kill the enemy not cry laugh. Have you noticed how rude people are in sports arenas and crowded cities, we feel justified for being aggressive. What are some of the toys our children have? Eliminating guns is not the beginning of getting rid of violence it is only taking care of symptoms not the disease. In spite of the great success in Australia, Sweden or where ever in getting rid of guns. America is a different country and what works there does not assure success in this country. None of those countries have a constitution like we have and the promises that come from supporting its mandates - like the 2nd amendment.
"Condemn me not because of mine imperfection,... but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been." Mormon 9:31
Angela
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Angela »

I'm not a person who would own/keep/whatever a gun. However, I don't think it's right or that it will help to take away someone else's gun. Like mom and edward have said, violence will happen regardless of gun control.

If I had to live anywhere else, it'd be in Texas. It's strangely comforting to know that if I go to the movies and some nut goes crazy with his gun, that a large portion of the audience will take care of him.
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Steve »

Yes, I agree with many of the sentiments shared. We are so quick to grasp at the immediate, visible fix and ignore the far more pressing matters pertaining to a perceived crisis. Men have fashioned weapons from a great number of materials with a great deal of creativity through the ages. There is always the desire to construct something that may give an individual power over an enemy. This has been used to great advantage for both good and evil in our history. True, there is always evil involved in war and violence, and not always is there a "good side" fighting in a given battle. But good people are always affected, and are often called upon to restore peace and order in times of strife.

I am against gun control if by "gun control" you mean "take away the rights of citizens to arm themselves." I believe men and women misuse many, many things which result in great sorrow and the loss of life. You may try to remove every implement and force them to behave, but that is a step toward folly in every sense. The fact is that guns serve a worthy purpose in defending life and liberty. That benefit is not erased by violent misuse from time to time.

The closest thing to "gun control" that I could find in the scriptures was the story of the Anti-Nephi-Lehites in The Book of Mormon. I have known some who have pointed to Alma 24 as scriptural support for taking away the nation's guns.
Alma 24:19
17 And now it came to pass that when the king had made an end of these sayings, and all the people were assembled together, they took their swords, and all the weapons which were used for the shedding of man’s blood, and they did bury them up deep in the earth.

18 And this they did, it being in their view a testimony to God, and also to men, that they never would use weapons again for the shedding of man’s blood; and this they did, vouching and covenanting with God, that rather than shed the blood of their brethren they would give up their own lives; and rather than take away from a brother they would give unto him; and rather than spend their days in idleness they would labor abundantly with their hands.

19 And thus we see that, when these Lamanites were brought to believe and to know the truth, they were firm, and would suffer even unto death rather than commit sin; and thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace.
However, these were murderers who were burying their weapons rather than be tempted to kill again. They would "suffer even unto death rather than commit sin," sin, of course, referring to disobeying God. They had poor track records with their swords and resolved to avoid falling into error by any means possible, not unlike someone who gives up computer use because of a pattern of poor choices (note: many Saints retain their computers despite their potential for evil). Notice, too, that these men voluntarily buried their own weapons.

Later in Alma, we are told of righteous Nephites who wielded swords for righteous purposes:
Alma 43:45-47
45 Nevertheless, the Nephites were inspired by a better cause, for they were not fighting for monarchy nor power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

46 And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

47 And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.
Finally, when is the last time you heard the Prophet speak about guns? Though the media would have us believe that guns are the blight of our age, I don't suppose they even approach the top 10. If only those who cry out against guns were so quick to call out against the true problems and perils of our day, we would be in a much better position to combat the real enemy.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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John
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Re: Gun Control

Post by John »

The current unrelenting encroachments of federal governmental regulations greatly overstep the boundaries intended by our inspired founding fathers. Part of the problem with the current youthful exuberant support for "democratic socialism" (an oxymoron if ever there was one) is the widespread sophomoric ignorance of our history and the foundational principles of the American revolution. The majority of "millennials" are woefully ignorant of the constitution's tenets and guiding principles. Their ignorance is eclipsed only by what I see as the current court's hubrus and insidious godlessness, the administrative branch's blinding lust for power. and the legislative branch's static spinelessness.
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Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

So far these are the arguments I am hearing:

1. Gun control doesn't work
2. Guns = freedom
3. People will kill each other with or without guns
4. The constitution defended the right to bear arms/kids these days don't understand the constitution
5. Guns don't kill people, people kill people
6. The Prophet doesn't care about guns as much as other stuff


Correct?
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Steve »

7. If #6 is true, Steve doesn't care about guns as much as other stuff.

I have plenty of "arguments" I'm aware of and could probably add to the list, but I'm not sure what purpose that would serve. When the Lord speaks out against guns, I will probably form a stronger opinion about them. In the meantime, I believe that this particular nation of citizens has the right to bear arms. That might be for the sake of protecting one's loved ones. It may simply be as an additional check against tyranny. Who knows? I simply have faith that such freedom has been established for a divine purpose.

Agency is good. Agency in the hands of evil men can bring pain and suffering. Still, agency is good.

Regardless of my thoughts, Betsy, I am very much appreciative of this discussion and look forward to the arguments you'll present in favor of "gun control." I might recommend that you define what you mean when you say that you support "gun control" and that you describe your ideal government-citizen relationship so I can be sure I understand where you're coming from.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Steve »

Some additional quotes that may be of interest:
Emmeline B. Wells (Fifth Relief Society General President): Administer in the spirit of love and patience to your husbands and to your children; guard the little ones; do not permit them to imbibe the spirit of intolerance or hatred to any nation or to any people; keep firearms out of their hands; do not allow them to play at war nor to find amusement in imitating death in battle; inculcate the spirit of loyalty to country and flag, but help them to feel that they are soldiers of the Cross and that if they must needs take up arms in the defense of liberty, of country and homes they shall do so without rancor or bitterness. … Teach the peaceable things of the kingdom [and] look after the needy more diligently than ever.

(Relief Society Magazine, July 1917, 364)
Harold B. Lee: Where is there safety in the world today? Safety can’t be won by tanks and guns and the airplanes and atomic bombs. There is only one place of safety and that is within the realm of the power of Almighty God that he gives to those who keep his commandments and listen to his voice, as he speaks through the channels that he has ordained for that purpose.

(Closing Remarks, October 1973 General Conference)
Joseph Smith: He that arms himself with gun, sword, or pistol, except in the defense of truth, will sometime be sorry for it. I never carry any weapon with me bigger than my penknife. When I was dragged before the cannon and muskets in Missouri, I was unarmed. God will always protect me until my mission is fulfilled.

I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. I once offered my life to the Missouri mob as a sacrifice for my people, and here I am. It will not be by sword or gun that this kingdom will roll on: the power of truth is such that all nations will be under the necessity of obeying the Gospel. The prediction is that army will be against army: it may be that the Saints will have to beat their ploughs into swords, for it will not do for men to sit down patiently and see their children destroyed.

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six: 1843-1844)
Brigham Young: How far does our agency extend? There are certain bounds to it. What we have witnessed in thirty years' experience teaches us that man can appoint, but God can disappoint. Man can load his gun to shoot his neighbor, but he cannot make the ball hit him, if the Lord Almighty sees fit to turn it away. He can draw the sword to hew down his fellow-man; but instead of that, he may fall upon it himself.

(Discourses of Brigham Young, Chapter V)
Joseph Smith:
There is nothing but what we have power over, except where restricted by the constitution of the United States. "But," says the mob, "What dangerous powers!" Yes—dangerous, because they will protect the innocent and put down mobocrats. The constitution of the United States declares that the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be denied. Deny me the writ of habeas corpus, and I will fight with gun, sword, cannon, whirlwind, and thunder, until they are used up like the Kilkenny cats. We have more power than most charters confer, because we have power to go behind the writ and try the merits of the case.

If these powers are dangerous, then the constitution of the United States and of this state are dangerous; but they are not dangerous to good men: they are only so to bad men who are breakers of the laws. So with the laws of the country, and so with the ordinances of Nauvoo: they are dangerous to mobs, but not to good men who wish to keep the laws.

We do not go out of Nauvoo to disturb anybody, or any city, town. or place. Why, then, need they be troubled about us? Let them not meddle with our affairs, but let us alone. After we have been deprived of our rights and privileges of citizenship, driven from town to town, place to place, and state to state, with the sacrifice of our homes and lands, our blood has been shed, many having been murdered, and all this because of our religion—because we worship Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, shall we longer bear these cruelties which have been heaped upon us for the last ten years in the face of heaven, and in open violation of the constitution and law of these United States and of this state? God forbid! I will not bear it. If they take away my rights, I will fight for them manfully and righteously until I am used up.

(History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 5, chapter 24)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
Angela
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Angela »

Steve, reading your post about the Anti-Nephi-Lehis reminded me that no took the weapons from them, they chose to bury them.

I could be totally off, but coercing people to obey sounds a lot like Satan's plan for us.
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Steve »

@Angela - Exactly right! I actually added that note about 2 minutes after I posted the comment: "Notice, too, that these men voluntarily buried their own weapons."

I've used similar remarks before, and the response was "Well, why are you in favor of banning alcoholic beverages then, or why are you against prostitution? What about the Honor Code? Shouldn't individuals be able to decide for themselves?" Prophets have emphatically spoken out against alcohol and prostitution. The Honor Code also forbids things that are simply wrong.

I am not so very confident in my position regarding firearms. I simply have faith that things were established for a purpose and that so long as people are righteous, that establishment will bless us. I believe we're panicking because of wickedness, and are inevitably lashing out at every issue and practice that we think might stop the water from flowing in. I do not believe that taking away guns will have any effect on our path to self-destruction. If we want to protect and preserve our citizens, we must focus on family, morality, and righteousness.

Gun control advocates hate that thought because it seems so far removed from the problem. "No, no, no. It's the guns killing the people! Stop the guns, you stop the killing! That is immediate, logical, cause and effect." However, we really do know better as we have read the scriptures and we know what leads to killing and what leads to peace. It is the simplest solution to every problem. It's harder for an individual to be righteous than to vote against firearms, though.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

I like how "sophomoric" and "sophistry" are Dad's new words of choice when he comes across something he thinks is totally stupid. :D We get it, dad, some things/people are dumb. Just know that we know what that word means.

I'll first address what I mean by gun control. It would mean that government would enact a gun ban and then a sweeping gun buy back, or something similar. For those that question if our government can afford that, the answer is yes, we spend trillions of dollars on national defense funds, we can certainly afford this.

But the question is SHOULD government create gun laws? Many of us say that it is not the governments role to intervene in our freedom to bear arms. The 2nd amendment states that "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." First of all, the constitution also says you can own a person. This is clearly not a flawless document. Second, we need to understand that what the founding fathers meant here, was that there needed to be armed MILITIAS. There is a distinction between a militiaman and an ordinary citizen. A militiaman's job is to protect the state (or country) from foreign attacks or to fight in war. My mind is boggled when people take that to mean every citizen in the united states needs to be carrying a gun. We all know that is ridiculous! Imagine a teacher holding a gun with one hand while writing the abc's on a chalkboard with another. Sounds crazy, right? Well if we want to stop all the attacks happening in schools, this is the only way!

It's not the only way. I'm guessing many of you, if given the chance, would vote against making marijuana legal in your state. I certainly did so when I lived in Washington. But based on your argument against gun control, you'd also probably have to say that they shouldn't be involved in banning drugs either.

When you say "Government should not get involved" you are successfully negating the concept of all lawmaking. Our government was designed to reflect the needs and interests of the people, and to protect us from harm. Why else do you think there are seatbelt laws? If you think gun control is too "controlling" I am very surprised you are not fighting for your right to not wear a seat belt! Can you believe the government even has the right to ban Kinder eggs?

It is interesting you brought up the story of of the anti-nephi-lehis, because that story actually really helps my point. They did indeed CHOOSE to do away with their weapons! That is exactly what we would be doing if we voted to enact gun laws. We do not live under a dictatorship, and we wouldn't be if gun control were enacted.

When you compare guns to other weapons such as knives and sticks, you are comparing apples to oranges. Guns make it hundreds of times easier to kill someone. Trust me on this, I have heard about more attempts at suicide than should be right, and they almost always fail, unless they have a gun. I suggest we do away with this argument. You are saying that unless we can do away with all crime, there is no point to making laws at all.

The me, most of the resistance to gun control is just a classic case of "well this is the way we have always done it." Having guns might be okay if people weren't killing as often as we are, but the fact is, WE ARE. A LOT. There are more deaths by guns since 1968 then on battlefields of all the wars in America's history. ALL OF THEM. You guys, America has a problem. It is not hard to see this. It's getting worse. Why? Because we keep thinking MORE GUNS MORE GUNS. The result of this is, sadly, MORE DEATHS MORE DEATHS.

And no, this is not God's plan. I have faith in God, but not in people. People are capable of great virtue, as Plato says, but men are weak. When given an easy choice, facilitated by a deadly weapon (guns) it is easy to make a terrible, terrible choice. Yes, agency has a role, it always will, no form of government can take that away. But we can take guns away.

As members of the church, I think we can do better. The article of faith does not say "We believe the constitution to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly"...and the Prophet is not going to dictate to us how to vote. I bet you could imagine the host of problems that would arise if he did. But the Prophets DO say that we need to vote! This is important because our voices represent and truly legitimize our government. In the past, monarchies and aristocracies theocracies tried to make their societies work, by appealing to diety as the ruling power. The genius of our current system of government is that it is represented by the people, for the people. This is precisely why the Revolutionaries sacrificed everything to break away from Britain's monarchial system: for religious freedom, and the freedom to create a society governed justly, and not just by one man's understanding of God's will.
Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

Oh and one last thing: remember that a slippery slope is a logical fallacy. Government taking away one property right does not automatically mean they will take away other rights.
Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

Whoops, another thing. I believe the Lord has already spoken out against guns, in that same Anti-nephi-lehi scripture example. This is only one reason my opinion is so strong about this. The other reason is that I don't want people killed.
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Steve »

Before I respond, I just have to know if I'm going to show up in your persuasive writing class! 8)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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