Gun Control

[Steve]

Dr. Leo Marvin, a world-renowned psychiatrist, recommends using puppets to communicate with young women who are ignoring you.



"Betsy! Please listen to us!"

[Ian]

these are fallible puppets.

[Steve]

Humanity will rise or fall through its attitude toward the law of chastity. If the world will honor virtue, it can expect to receive God's blessings; but if it persists in the practice of sodomy, adultery, and other perversions, it can expect only destruction, for the wage of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).

(Elder Mark E. Petersen, General Conference, April 1969) ↗

The troubles of the world often expressed in screaming headlines should remind us to seek for the peace that comes from living the simple principles of the gospel of Christ.

(Elder Howard W. Hunter, General Conference, October 1969) ↗

[Steve]

Confusion seems admittedly to be the dominant characteristic of our times. There is confusion of procedures, a baffling contrariety as to what ought to be done and how to do it. There seems to be agreement about only one thing, namely, that the world's affairs are terribly messed up. But there is no agreement about the causes for the sorry condition, nor the remedy. ...

We get ourselves all tangled up in a maze of superficialities and mistake consequences for causes. We tell ourselves over and over again that life in this day has become very complex; that it is not simple and elementary any more as it once was; and that our outlook and approaches to the problems of the day must take on the same complexities as the intricate web of mechanisms we have woven about ourselves. ...

I think I can illustrate how basic issues are buried under a cover of superficialities by reference to an experience in the life of Paul. In the course of his missionary journeys, he came to Ephesus where he found certain poorly instructed believers. He taught in the synagogue for three months when, because of opposition, he separated his disciples, and they went their ways teaching for a period of two years with such effect that the record says: "All they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 19:10). This brought the Christian message squarely up against the idolatry of the Ephesians with the result that there was a great conversion from idolatry. Says the account in Acts 19:23-29:

And the same time there arose no small stir about that way. For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen; whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth. Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. And when they heard these sayings they were full of wrath. . . . And the whole city was filled with confusion (Acts 19:23-29).

Now, the fundamental issue, and the only issue, was between the teachings of Jesus and the pagan religion of the Ephesians. But that issue was completely buried under the furore engendered by a purely incidental consequence. Paul was teaching the way of life, a thing of transcendent importance to all the race of men, the future of the world. With the purely collateral consequence to the business of a few silversmiths and art craftsmen he had no concern.

But the incident was not decided on the merits of the respective doctrines concerning the souls and destiny of men. So far as immediate results were concerned a superficial materialism completely smothered and took out of the reckoning the fundamental moral and spiritual issue involved. ...

In one way or another the process illustrated in this incident has been repeating itself throughout history. Every would-be world conqueror from Alexander on down and almost every empire builder, too, for that matter, has pursued his course in total disregard of the question of what is right. They find it easy to obscure the moral issue by burying it deep under an overburden of casuistries. ... A color of righteousness may be given the whole monstrous scheme by pointing out the virtue of the ultimate objective—to bring a larger good to his people... However impressive the array of justifying reasons may be, when they are brushed away the simple question left is whether the powerful have a right to crush the weak even to bring added benefits to them. To this the conscience of humanity must answer with a resounding "no!" ...

There is likewise a companion evil to the one just spoken of, just as reprehensible, though perhaps not quite so clearly recognized. It is the case of a powerful state, apprehending attack from another one, casting about for defensive means. It conceives that its security would be best promoted if it possessed a strategic point owned by another state. In the interest of its security it takes by force what it wants from its unwilling but powerless neighbor though the latter has to be mercilessly crushed in the process. The conqueror justifies itself and is justified by its apologists upon the plea of its own necessity. The basic immorality of the matter is conveniently ignored. ...

In defense of such courses it is sometimes argued that where the objective is good, the end to be achieved worthy, the means employed to attain it are justified, however bad in themselves they may be. The idea is crystallized in the saying: "The end justifies the means." It is a monstrously false doctrine. If this is a moral universe, as I believe it to be, no methods for effecting change, however desirable the end sought, can properly be resorted to which are not in themselves consistent with that end. To employ violence, oppressive coercion, cruelty, injustice for the accomplishment of desired ends is to set loose forces of evil which must inevitably weaken and, to a degree at least, nullify those ends. In the process of achievement they lose their moral power. We see this truth exemplified almost every day. The employment of evil means to achieve allegedly worthy ends threatens to destroy the efforts for lasting peace which are so much in the public notice today. ...

Men submit their differences to the judgment and decision of a court merely because they are too childish and immature to sit down together and agree on what is right. ...

We cannot well lay claim to being a grown-up, mature, civilized people until we have come to the point where morality is the determinant, and we ask simply what is, in good conscience, right. The conclusion seems inescapable that the confusion and distraction and conflicts and antagonisms and uncertainties and bewilderment which plague the world today present mankind with what is at bottom a purely moral issue—the issue between right and wrong. That, then, should be the final test of the propriety of all courses of action.

But there are difficulties thrown in the way of getting that simple test adopted. One is that there is current in the world today a school of thought which asserts that there is no such thing as universal principles of right as opposed to wrong. They say that for the individual, growth is a continuing "ongoing process" without direction. That is, that we are continually changing, growing but not toward any ultimate purpose. There are accordingly no fixed principles by reference to which we may determine what we ought to do. If confronted with a situation, all we can do is to experiment—try out the course we want to take, and if it works out to the advantage of the experimenter, then for him it is right. Each one finds out for himself according to his own interest. Of course this must inevitably result in confusion, and ultimate chaos.

This is a deadly paralyzing notion to plant in the minds of people and particularly the youthful and immature. It strikes down belief that man is a moral being with a purpose and a destiny and commensurate responsibilities. It releases one who accepts it from all restraints of conscience. It provides him with an allegedly scientific but basely false assurance that he is in no wise responsible for his actions however vile they may be since they are after all but in the course of nature. Let such a notion as that gain general currency and you have dealt a devastating blow to all organized society. A free government could no longer exist, for its perpetuity must depend upon the moral integrity of its citizens. Only an absolute, iron-bound despotism could deal with a situation like that. ...

It is sufficient to say that wherever religion has been discarded confusion and moral anarchy have followed. And that is one of the reasons for the confusion in the political world today. Mr. C.E.M. Joad, an eminent English philosopher, an atheist driven by events to reconsider his opinions, writes:

Where there is a large measure of general agreement in regard to ultimate ends, political doctrines can be represented as means to their realization. Where, however, there are no common ends to which the generality of men subscribe, political programs assume the status of ends in themselves. In the nineteenth century there was a general agreement among thinking people as to the nature and end of the individual. His nature was that of an immortal soul; his end was to achieve eternal salvation. Thus, when men differed about politics—even when they differed about ethics—their differences related to the best method of realizing the individual's nature and achieving the individual's end. Moreover, there was, broadly speaking, a general agreement, at least in the western democracies, as to the kind of society which it was desirable to establish. Owing to the decline of traditional religion these agreements no longer obtain, precisely because there is today no general acceptance of the view of the individual as an immortal soul and no general reliance upon the hope of eternal salvation. Consequently, political doctrines such as Fascism and Communism assume for the twentieth century the status which religious doctrines possessed in the nineteenth; they are not, that is to say, doctrines in regard to means to an agreed end, but doctrines in regard to ends about which there is no agreement.

Thus is clearly brought into focus the danger of shifting away from old moorings. When foundation principles are discarded, then shifting, vagrant, opportunistic substitutes for principles take control and precisely because they are opportunistic they must shift with the vagaries of changing popular moods. Stability—a steady march forward toward a fixed goal—no longer is found.

It is for us to stand by the tried and proved principles of religion and the tried and proved governmental principles which have so blessed our land.

That we may have the discerning wisdom and vision to do it and, at least among ourselves, resolve all our differences on the basis of right, I pray, in the name of Jesus. Amen.

(Elder Albert E. Bowen, General Conference, October 1944) ↗

This is an excellent talk that speaks to gun control, socialism, transgender bathrooms, black and white, mental illness, and many other topics of discussion on this site.

[Ian]

great talk, and he used a great word: casuistry.

[Steve]

Yes, I had to look up the word when I was reading the talk: "the use of clever but unsound reasoning, especially in relation to moral questions; sophistry."

[Ian]

this 1749 textual reference to casuistry provides a good definition:

Some casuistry has been employed to excuse these men to themselves and to others. But such casuistry, and in truth every other, destroys, by distinctions and exceptions, all morality, and effaces the essential difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

Henry Saint John, 1st Viscount Bolingbroke, Letters on the Spirit of Patriotism, etc., London, 1749, p. 170

[Betsy]

Where is "Ian the news reporter's" update on the latest mass shooting? Did he conveniently forget? Or was it not worth reporting because it wasn't a "good guy with a gun" story? Would it not help your stance to mention something as horrible as this? Not even a posting of the church's statement? I'm sure someone will post it now that I prompted them, and they will use it as an excuse to blind themselves even further.

Aren't we so glad that America has given absolute, unbridled license for ISIS supporters to purchase weapons and shoot people? Isn't this what we wanted? Don't say no, because if that isn't what you want you are a dirty gun control supporter! Everyone deserves the right to get out there and kill whomever they please! That is the American way! We are a privileged, noble and civilized nation of gun wielding killers!

Oh I'm sorry, does this all sound "extreme" and "hyperbolic" to you? Well then you need to wake up and realize that this is reality and I am not making up a single thing. 50 people were instantly killed this weekend and it will do absolutely nothing but cause the Huntington family to dig their heels in deeper in defense of "gun rights". or even worse, that this was somehow "God's plan". How absolutely sickening. If I am dreaming, please wake me up.

[John]

splenetic vitriol - unbecoming.

"...it will do absolutely nothing but cause the Huntington family to dig their heels in deeper in defense of "gun rights". or even worse, that this was somehow "God's plan". How absolutely sickening."

This does not in any way characterize my response. If you are sickened by your family, I'm sorry.

I love you.

[John]

Despite the attempted preemptive strikes above, let's go ahead and discuss. I'm willing, Betsy, to allow you your pleasure in having rushed to your computer this morning so you could make your digs first and deepest.

[Steve]

I am very sad by the events that transpired. Like the Church, I "mourn the tragic loss of life and serious injuries that occurred" and, as I've indicated throughout this thread, I do care about the lives that are lost from all manner of senseless hatred and violence. In our family scripture study, we recently read about Nephi and the similar conditions among his people. We read that "his heart was swollen with sorrow within his breast" (Helaman 7:6). We read that in the midst of great murder and bloodshed, Nephi cared more about the people than about policies related to their weaponry. Despite both Cezoram and his son being murdered and nine subsequent verses in Chapter 6 that referenced the many murders being committed, here is Nephi's response:

7 Oh, that I could have had my days in the days when my father Nephi first came out of the land of Jerusalem, that I could have joyed with him in the promised land; then were his people easy to be entreated, firm to keep the commandments of God, and slow to be led to do iniquity; and they were quick to hearken unto the words of the Lord—

8 Yea, if my days could have been in those days, then would my soul have had joy in the righteousness of my brethren.

9 But behold, I am consigned that these are my days, and that my soul shall be filled with sorrow because of this the wickedness of my brethren. ↗

This was a very public response. Nephi essentially posted all of this to social media as these sobering events were happening:

10 And behold, now it came to pass that it was upon a tower, which was in the garden of Nephi, which was by the highway which led to the chief market, which was in the city of Zarahemla; therefore, Nephi had bowed himself upon the tower which was in his garden, which tower was also near unto the garden gate by which led the highway.

11 And it came to pass that there were certain men passing by and saw Nephi as he was pouring out his soul unto God upon the tower; and they ran and told the people what they had seen, and the people came together in multitudes that they might know the cause of so great mourning for the wickedness of the people. ↗

When a few people "read his post" and questioned his approach, he "replied to their comments":

13 And it came to pass that he opened his mouth and said unto them: Behold, why have ye gathered yourselves together? That I may tell you of your iniquities?

14 Yea, because I have got upon my tower that I might pour out my soul unto my God, because of the exceeding sorrow of my heart, which is because of your iniquities!

15 And because of my mourning and lamentation ye have gathered yourselves together, and do marvel; yea, and ye have great need to marvel; yea, ye ought to marvel because ye are given away that the devil has got so great hold upon your hearts.

16 Yea, how could you have given way to the enticing of him who is seeking to hurl away your souls down to everlasting misery and endless wo?

17 O repent ye, repent ye! Why will ye die? Turn ye, turn ye unto the Lord your God. Why has he forsaken you?

18 It is because you have hardened your hearts; yea, ye will not hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd; yea, ye have provoked him to anger against you.

19 And behold, instead of gathering you, except ye will repent, behold, he shall scatter you forth that ye shall become meat for dogs and wild beasts.

20 O, how could you have forgotten your God in the very day that he has delivered you?

21 But behold, it is to get gain, to be praised of men, yea, and that ye might get gold and silver. And ye have set your hearts upon the riches and the vain things of this world, for the which ye do murder, and plunder, and steal, and bear false witness against your neighbor, and do all manner of iniquity.

22 And for this cause wo shall come unto you except ye shall repent. For if ye will not repent, behold, this great city, and also all those great cities which are round about, which are in the land of our possession, shall be taken away that ye shall have no place in them; for behold, the Lord will not grant unto you strength, as he has hitherto done, to withstand against your enemies.

23 For behold, thus saith the Lord: I will not show unto the wicked of my strength, to one more than the other, save it be unto those who repent of their sins, and hearken unto my words. Now therefore, I would that ye should behold, my brethren, that it shall be better for the Lamanites than for you except ye shall repent.

24 For behold, they are more righteous than you, for they have not sinned against that great knowledge which ye have received; therefore the Lord will be merciful unto them; yea, he will lengthen out their days and increase their seed, even when thou shalt be utterly destroyed except thou shalt repent.

25 Yea, wo be unto you because of that great abomination which has come among you; and ye have united yourselves unto it, yea, to that secret band which was established by Gadianton!

26 Yea, wo shall come unto you because of that pride which ye have suffered to enter your hearts, which has lifted you up beyond that which is good because of your exceedingly great riches!

27 Yea, wo be unto you because of your wickedness and abominations!

28 And except ye repent ye shall perish; yea, even your lands shall be taken from you, and ye shall be destroyed from off the face of the earth.

29 Behold now, I do not say that these things shall be, of myself, because it is not of myself that I know these things; but behold, I know that these things are true because the Lord God has made them known unto me, therefore I testify that they shall be. ↗

Do you know what the public response would have been if Nephi had made these "insensitive and outlandish remarks" today in light of the news reports? Surely the same backlash he received in the following chapter:

1 ...Why do ye not seize upon this man and bring him forth, that he may be condemned according to the crime which he has done? ...

5 Why do you suffer this man to revile against us? For behold he doth condemn all this people, even unto destruction; yea, and also that these our great cities shall be taken from us, that we shall have no place in them.

6 And now we know that this is impossible, for behold, we are powerful, and our cities great, therefore our enemies can have no power over us. ↗

Does Nephi retract his words, and apologize? No. He loves the people. His heart is swollen with sorrow for them. So he responds accordingly:

24 And now, seeing ye know these things and cannot deny them except ye shall lie, therefore in this ye have sinned, for ye have rejected all these things, notwithstanding so many evidences which ye have received; yea, even ye have received all things, both things in heaven, and all things which are in the earth, as a witness that they are true.

25 But behold, ye have rejected the truth, and rebelled against your holy God; and even at this time, instead of laying up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where nothing doth corrupt, and where nothing can come which is unclean, ye are heaping up for yourselves wrath against the day of judgment.

26 Yea, even at this time ye are ripening, because of your murders and your fornication and wickedness, for everlasting destruction; yea, and except ye repent it will come unto you soon. ↗

Because of great prophets and missionaries like Nephi, we know all of these things in our day. We sorrow for the senseless violence and reckless hate. Most of all, we sorrow for the wickedness of our people.

Recall Mormon's similar experience and compare it to our present circumstances (Mormon 2:11-13):

11 Thus there began to be a mourning and a lamentation in all the land because of these things, and more especially among the people of Nephi.

12 And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation and their mourning and their sorrow before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering of the Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them that they would again become a righteous people.

13 But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin. ↗

Like Nephi and Mormon, I am sorrowful for the continual bloodshed and devastation witnessed among us in this country. It is heartbreaking to watch. How I wish it were not so. I cannot help but notice that not a single Book of Mormon or Biblical prophet wastes any of their sorrow on the manufacture or distribution of weapons—it is entirely focused on the things that most closely pertain to the tragedies around them.

We eventually read the Lord's response to Nephi's perceived insensitivity (Helaman 10:4-11):

4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.

5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.

6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.

7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done.

9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done.

10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.

11 And now behold, I command you, that ye shall go and declare unto this people, that thus saith the Lord God, who is the Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction. ↗

[Edward]

My heart goes out to those people affected by this tragedy. My prayer is that the influence of the gospel, the comfort of the spirit, and the love of Christ will help them to recover from these catastrophic events.

Where is "Ian the news reporter's" update on the latest mass shooting? Did he conveniently forget? Or was it not worth reporting because it wasn't a "good guy with a gun" story? Would it not help your stance to mention something as horrible as this? Not even a posting of the church's statement? I'm sure someone will post it now that I prompted them, and they will use it as an excuse to blind themselves even further.

Aren't we so glad that America has given absolute, unbridled license for ISIS supporters to purchase weapons and shoot people? Isn't this what we wanted? Don't say no, because if that isn't what you want you are a dirty gun control supporter! Everyone deserves the right to get out there and kill whomever they please! That is the American way! We are a privileged, noble and civilized nation of gun wielding killers!

Oh I'm sorry, does this all sound "extreme" and "hyperbolic" to you? Well then you need to wake up and realize that this is reality and I am not making up a single thing. 50 people were instantly killed this weekend and it will do absolutely nothing but cause the Huntington family to dig their heels in deeper in defense of "gun rights". or even worse, that this was somehow "God's plan". How absolutely sickening. If I am dreaming, please wake me up.

Well, one thing I will point out. Just because you are the first to address an issue, does not give you an upper leg in a discussion, nor does it prove anything besides the fact that you saw this event, not as the tragedy it is, but as fodder for your own political platform, and that you are thinking more about how this grievous affair will support your opinions than you have about how it will affect the lives of those affected. And by writing out what you imagine our reaction to be, you save us the trouble of writing it out ourselves.

So bravo. Your reactionary, incendiary, illogical, indifferent attack has done more to put me against gun control than anything else so far. Your callous, vitriolic remarks are absolutely uncalled for. And don't try and push this "act" you have going about how outraged you are, about how angry this makes you. It doesn't fool me. You care more about this issue than the people who were affected by the incident. Where are your words of comfort to them? Where is the compassion, the care, the love? No, you have none of that. Only "outrage." I saw your facebook post. So angry are you that you threaten to delete anybody who questions you, and so you put your political views even above your relationships, and become the very extremist monster you so vehemently fear in others. We have seen the enemy, and it is us. Do you not hear how judgmental, how closed-minded, how fearful you have become?

You have become so desperate to prove your point and push your agenda that you gouge out your own spiritual eyes even as you call others "blind;" a King Lear scenario indeed. You see yourself as a champion of human rights, yet ignore the very humans whose rights you fight for. You strike first because striking is all you know how to do; you do nothing to heal, only to hurt. These posts of yours degrade the very moral issues you claim to espouse. When I see that you have compassion instead of criticism, mercy instead of mania, or friendship instead of fear, maybe then I can reconsider where I stand. But for now, I stand against the rage and reactionism you put ahead of those poor people whom you have completely ignored.

[Betsy]

So bravo. Your reactionary, incendiary, illogical, indifferent attack has done more to put me against gun control than anything else so far.

Then you have done exactly as I predicted.

Trying to fake your way into making me seem uncaring for the dead would be a good tactic - except it's not, and it's straight wrong.

When I see that you have compassion instead of criticism, mercy instead of mania, or friendship instead of fear, maybe then I can reconsider where I stand

I've done all of these things. I've worked tirelessly to maintain civility, compassion, mercy, and friendship. Did that actually inspire any progress? Please, don't lie to me to egg me on into taking part of this nonsense any more.

Despite the attempted preemptive strikes above, let's go ahead and discuss. I'm willing, Betsy, to allow you your pleasure in having rushed to your computer this morning so you could make your digs first and deepest.

I don't understand this visual. All of you are "rushing to your computers" at this very moment. What exactly does that characterization do for your argument? You know what's really weird, is that all of you stalk my facebook and only bring it up when something especially offensive pops up. I know exactly who my audience is. It is why I write what I write. It is why I wrote what I wrote.

I have given this discussion already too much. Please refer back to my research paper for any information you wish to know about my stance on guns. You may continue posting quotes to feed your mind with distractions as to what is happening and what you can do to change it. In a way Steve is right: I am wasting my time talking about gun control here. But I've made my stance more than clear. You're going to try to drown it out, though, for sure.

If you wish to talk about this with me, please give me a call. I'd be more than happy to discuss the issue in a format less lost to your interpretation.

The last thing I will leave you with is this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nicole-si ... 08154.html

[Steve]

I will leave you with this:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/hel ... ang=eng#28

[John]

I have read and very much appreciated the reasoned, measured and compassionate response by Steve. Your focused appeal to Book of Mormon principles has been helpful in processing my feelings, as did the entirely appropriate response from the church to this horrific act. My first thoughts were for the victims of this dreadful event.

Again, thank you, Steve. I was touched.

I do not believe that this criminal's actions were CAUSED by his ability to procure weapons. I believe they were CAUSED by a hateful, vengeful, and spiritually bankrupt heart.