Secularism

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Tuly
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Secularism

Post by Tuly »

I believe secularism may be hard to detect in these days. Yet it is very prevalent in our world. This quote by James E. Faust from his talk The Light in Their Eyes -
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... ng=eng#23-, gives further understanding to the problems this philosophy brings.
Secularism is expanding in much of the world today. Secularism is defined as “indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations.” Secularism does not accept many things as absolutes. Its principal objectives are pleasure and self-interest. Often those who embrace secularism have a different look about them. As Isaiah observed, “The show of their countenance doth witness against them.”

Yet with all the secularism in the world, many people hunger and yearn for the things of the Spirit and hearing the word of the Lord. As Amos prophesied: “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

“And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.”
"Condemn me not because of mine imperfection,... but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been." Mormon 9:31
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Ian
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Re: Secularism

Post by Ian »

i might not have read your large block quote, but the large font size drew me in. this is an excellent quote from an excellent talk. thanks. here's the next paragraph in the talk:

[quote]Where can we hear the words of the Lord? We can hear them from our prophet, President Gordon B. Hinckley, the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and the other General Authorities. We can also hear them from our stake presidents and bishops. Missionaries can hear them from their mission presidents. We can read them in the scriptures. We can also hear the still, small voice which comes through the Holy Ghost. Hearing the words of the Lord lifts us out of spiritual blindness “into his marvellous light.”[/quote]
so let it be written... so let it be done.
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Steve
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Re: Secularism

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Elder Clayton and Elder Ballard just spoke to the YSA stakes in Provo. The event raised a bit of controversy around here due to Elder Ballard's counsel:
Now you know, every time we look at you—I know you're just waiting for me to talk about marriage, aren't you? I would not want to disappoint you. I'd just simply say to you brethren, 'Wake up! Open your eyes and look around a little.' And you beautiful girls, don't wander around looking like men. Put on a little lipstick now and then, and look a little charming. It's that simple! I don't know why we make this whole process so hard.
Elder Ballard concluded his remarks to the young men and young women, though, with this:
Now, I want you to know that this is the Church of Jesus Christ. He presides over it. He has the power to micromanage those things that need to be done in our lives when we trust fully, and completely, and totally in Him. I conclude with a few words from one of the great heroes of all scripture, of all of the prophets in my judgement, and that's Moroni. Listen to these words:

[Elder Ballard reads Moroni 10:30-34]

It's wonderful to know what we know! We're so blessed! We don't have to wonder what we're here for. We don't have to question anything in the Church. Don't get off into that. Just stay in the Book of Mormon. Just stay in the Doctrine and Covenants. Just listen to the prophets. Just listen to the apostles. We won't lead you astray—we cannot lead you astray! That's why there are fifteen of us. We're pretty hard on each other to be sure we keep...the Church right on the white line of life. We will do that. May God bless you to do your part, now and always, is my humble prayer in the sacred and beloved name of the Lord, Jesus Christ, amen.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Tuly
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Re: Secularism

Post by Tuly »

Speaking of gratitude - Steve, thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this devotional and the so called "controversial" quote by Elder Ballard and for putting it on this thread. Women (this is for women who possibly find that quote offensive) how can this statement be offensive?
"Condemn me not because of mine imperfection,... but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been." Mormon 9:31
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Ian
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Re: Secularism

Post by Ian »

we don't like to be micromanaged, it hurts our pride.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
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Steve
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Re: Secularism

Post by Steve »

I suppose it's the same thing that bothered people when Elder Earl C. Tingey gave his talk in January, 2008:
Remember, prophets love and speak truth, and they do not soften or modify truth to speak the easy things that people like to hear (see Isaiah 30:20; 2 Nephi 9:40). So be careful that you do not reject the prophets because your personal circumstances and timetable do not presently accommodate their counsel.
...
Exercise of agency is sometimes influenced by personal appearance, both your own and another’s. On occasion, it is difficult to become acquainted with someone’s real self because of first impressions.

Be willing to sit down with a trusted friend and ask this question: What would you recommend I do to improve my physical appearance? Listen to what he or she says. Do not be offended, but take to heart his or her counsel. If necessary, joyfully and happily improve yourself, whether it involves having a smile on your face, losing weight, or changing your hairstyle, grooming, clothing, mannerisms, personal hygiene, or anything else.

Well, I finally said it. Are you offended at me?
I think a lot of people felt that these things were nobody else's business. Humility and faith help us to ward off secularism. In family home evening last night, our family discussed Paul's description of the armor of God. Notable that it's a shield of "faith" (and this "above all") that quenches "all the fiery darts of the wicked" as opposed to a shield of "logic" or "academics." It's a "sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God" that we use to engage the world, not a sword of "political persuasion." Loins girt with truth. Feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace. A helmet of salvation. We are grateful for these protections in our lives, and hope to continue to fortify ourselves with these things according to the instructions given by the Lord.

PS - I think it no coincidence that this chapter in Ephesians begins with:
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)

3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
Angela
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Re: Secularism

Post by Angela »

oh that Elder Ballard. I, also, don't know why we make it so hard on ourselves to look appropriate. It's easier and less time consuming to look presentable than trying to look like the rest of the fools walking around.

It's difficult for me to imagine the brethren being "hard" on each other. And I feel for him and his plea to everyone to just do what we know in our hearts to be right. Study the scriptures, listen to the prophets and apostles. You will not be lead astray!
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Edward
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Re: Secularism

Post by Edward »

Despite what many people wish to believe, how you present yourself actually does affect your life, from the way you see yourself to the way others treat you to the opportunities that present themselves - even to your moral standing. A prophet has the right to speak on any subject at any given time, because as prophets, they are really speaking for the Lord, not themselves. Do we have so little faith in God that we believe he would let one of his prophets tell us something wrong?! Well, the apostles are ALL prophets, and while only one man holds the title of Prophet to the World with the accompanying presidency of the church, ALL of the apostles are prophets in function. They all speak directly for the Lord. And even if they were to give their "opinions," they are experienced, exceptionally insightful men whose insights and counsels are going to be the best you can get in any case.

I find it almost humorous when people brush aside the words of the prophets or apostles as though, somehow, they "know better." For example, some girls have felt it wasn't Elder Ballard's place to tell them to wear lipstick now and then. Lipstick I tell you! And they are letting it affect their views of him, of the church, etc. Are we that easily offended? Look at the context; here we have an apostle speaking to the Young Single Adult Stakes which are FILLED with women who wish they were getting asked out more. How thoughtful of him to give some advice that might help them get the dates they so desperately crave, but NO! He can't tell me to do that! It's "not his place!" Frankly, the Lord would have stopped him from saying it if it was wrong of him to do so. But He didn't! So the message isn't "how could he say something like that?" but rather "why would he say something like that? What is he trying to teach me by saying this?"

People have got to accept the fact that the Lord can give us counsel on ANY SUBJECT at ANY TIME, and that it is always going to come through his chosen leaders. If people don't like it, the problem isn't with the Church leaders ....
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Steve
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Re: Secularism

Post by Steve »

Nice, Edward. And I'd venture to say that I don't think the lipstick was intended to be a specific prescription for everyone. It does point to the details of our presentation and the care we take in personal grooming. There are visual cues that pertain to each gender, and both men and women can benefit from proper attention to their appearance in those regards. Deuteronomy 22:5 immediately came to mind when I heard Elder Ballard's remarks:
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.
Lest the men think they're off the hook, in addition to Elder Ballard's reminder that men open their eyes and take initiative in regards to courtship and marriage, prophets have consistently discouraged young men in our day from letting go of their missionary hair styles and clean-shaven faces. Yet, all around us here at BYU and elsewhere, the guys feel like they're above such counsel.

It is all, I believe, idolatry and pride—it is secularism.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: Secularism

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One of the principal compensations that have come to me as a worker in the Church has been the opportunity to occasionally meet and shake hands with these leaders. I accept them and always have accepted them as prophets of the living God. I have never been very particular to determine when they were speaking as prophets of God and when they were speaking as men. It has never occurred to me that I had the ability to determine that. It has been the rule of my life to find out if I could, by listening closely to what they said and by asking the Lord to help me interpret it, what they had in mind for the Latter-day Saints to do and then do it. I am happy to say, not boastfully but gratefully, that I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional or political life.

Recently I have read biographies of all the past presidents of the Church except President Snow—his I have not had available—as well as biographies of Heber C. Kimball, Parley P. Pratt and other leaders of the Church. In all the experiences of my life, including this reading, I have never learned of a single instance where a person who has followed the advice and counsel of the leaders of the Church suffered therefrom. On the other hand the record of the past is full of instances where men have refused to follow such advice and counsel and as a result have lost the Spirit of the Lord and the companionship of His people. These observations have persuaded me that the Church leaders speak under the inspiration of the Lord regardless of the subject under consideration, and have strengthened my determination not to try too closely to discriminate between when they speak as prophets and when they speak as men. I should like very much to avoid the consequence of making a mistake for it is a terrible thing to lose the Spirit of the Lord. One of the reasons why I have always paid an honest tithing, and a little more, is because in one of the revelations the Lord has said that those who were not tithed should not have place with those who were tithed, and I have desired with all my heart to have a place with the faithful Saints of God. I can understand now why it was that my father could pay tithing in the days of his distress. After we were driven from Mexico I saw the time when he supported a family of seven or eight children—ten at the end—on an income of about $45.00 a month, and I saw him go to the Bishop every month and pay $4.50 tithing. I used to wonder why it was, but I know, now that I have the witness of the Gospel in my own heart.

(Elder Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, April 1941; emphasis added)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: Secularism

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In regard to this people's sustaining the First Presidency, they believe that they do; but still there is something beyond which many do not as yet understand: there are instances in which they do not fully sustain the Presidency. It may be asked, “Have not this people voted to sustain the Presidency?” Yes; but do they sustain them in every particular? The great majority sustain them, as far as they understand. The main difficulty is that many do not know how the Presidency should be sustained, through lack of intelligence to rightly discern and classify their acts and reflections.

...

This people would do many things that would tend to death, if they did not listen to correct instructions; for, as yet, they have not wisdom enough to guide them under all circumstances. And although you think that you sustain your Presidency, yet many conduct themselves in some things precisely as do the people in the world. They take a course to destroy themselves politically and religiously, and they will destroy themselves; and so would many of you, if you were destitute of counselors dictated by the Spirit of the Lord to direct in all things, whether relating to religious or political government. We stand upon this platform; still we are in a measure yet like the world. There are some contentions and discords, and some are taking a course which will bring evil upon us. Do they know it? No, they do not: but their ignorance will not prevent the effects. They do not know the consequences of unwise acts; but they will produce evil, whether they understand them or not.

...

All the acts we perform should be governed by the guidance of the Priesthood. Were that done, you would see blessings result from all the acts of a nation, just as we wish to see in our Republic, and as we would see, if the people of our nation would learn and practice the principles of the Priesthood. The Priesthood does not wait for ignorance: it instructs those who have not wisdom, and are desirous of learning correct principles. But our Government is controlled by ignorance; and thousands who are ignorant of the true principles of correct government are placed in important positions, and every department is more or less governed by ignorance, folly, and weakness. More imbecility has been manifested in the management of public affairs, of late, than ought to be manifested by any government.

...

It is published from east to west, and from north to south, that the “Mormons” are opposed to the Government of the United States. That is not true, and never was. But many of the officers and people of the United States are too much opposed to their own institutions, and are taking a course to destroy the best form of government instituted by man. They lay the axe at the root of the tree, and it will fall and be as though it had not been. They do not understand the principles which will build them up.

...

If you have superior wisdom in your midst for your guidance, why do you not learn that fact, and permit yourselves to be guided by that wisdom in your business transactions as well as in doctrine?—for there is no dividing between matters spiritual and temporal. There is no act of a Latter-day Saint—no duty required—no time given, exclusive and independent of the Priesthood. Everything is subject to it, whether preaching, business, or any other act pertaining to the proper conduct of this life. It takes the whole man to make a Saint: there are no exceptions in “Mormonism.” Learn so to think and direct your acts in every transaction of life, that we may overcome the evil that is sown within us.

(Remarks by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the Bowery, Provo, June 6, 1858)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: Secularism

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During the early days of the Church we passed through a period of slander and misrepresentation, and we came through. It drove us together because of enemies from the outside. And we survived it. We passed through a period of mobbing and driving, when lives were taken and blood was shed, and somehow the place of the martyr gave us strength. We passed through poverty, and we gained strength from the test of it. Then we passed through an age of what we might call apostasy, or betrayal from the inside—one of the severest tests through which we have passed. We are now going through another test—a period of what we might call sophistication. This is a time when there are many clever people who are not willing to listen to the humble prophets of the Lord. And we have suffered from that. It is rather a severe test.

...

Is it necessary for us to be warned more than the Lord has warned the people in times past? that people who are so slow to listen to the counsels of wisdom will have to be tried by pestilence, by famine, by earthquakes, and all sorts of destruction before they'll be humble enough to listen to the words of God?

(President Harold B. Lee, Teachings of Harold B. Lee)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Tuly
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Re: Secularism

Post by Tuly »

We are in Helaman in The Book of Mormon. As I really studied in particular Helaman 12:1-7 - I thought of our currents state of affairs in the world. I noticed how when we put our trust in Him and we prosper even our "art" increases and we would be delivered from our enemies. Secularism truly is about forgetting our God and to give ear to the counsel of the evil one.
Helaman 12:1 And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him.

2 Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.

3 And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him.

4 O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how quick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their hearts upon the vain things of the world!

5 Yea, how quick to be lifted up in pride; yea, how quick to boast, and do all manner of that which is iniquity; and how slow are they to remember the Lord their God, and to give ear unto his counsels, yea, how slow to walk in wisdom’s paths!

6 Behold, they do not desire that the Lord their God, who hath created them, should rule and reign over them; notwithstanding his great goodness and his mercy towards them, they do set at naught his counsels, and they will not that he should be their guide.

7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.
"Condemn me not because of mine imperfection,... but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been." Mormon 9:31
Angela
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Re: Secularism

Post by Angela »

oh that pride cycle. It really never ends.

Steve, I really liked reading President Lee's remarks. Reading how the saints were driven together because of their enemies made me think how we should seek each other out in these difficult times. And then I went on to read
Then we passed through an age of what we might call apostasy, or betrayal from the inside—one of the severest tests through which we have passed. We are now going through another test—a period of what we might call sophistication. This is a time when there are many clever people who are not willing to listen to the humble prophets of the Lord. And we have suffered from that. It is rather a severe test.
Oh no, I am not fond of tests! I have to fight the urge to build a bunker and just hide from the evils of the world. But NOW is the time to stand and be counted among His followers!! I will have to try harder to stand up and be vocal.

My religion is who I am and it guides me through all of my daily activities, whether they be at church, in the voting booth, or teaching my children. God should be the center of our lives and His words though the scriptures, prophets, apostles, etc. are ready and available to guide us in our lives if we will just humble ourselves and listen.
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John
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Re: Secularism

Post by John »

I concur.

Again from Orson Spencer quoted elsewhere and in other contexts, but germaine here as well:

"Error may become venerable by age, and respectable from the number of its votaries, but neither age nor popularity can ever make it truth."
"Music's golden tongue flatter'd to tears this aged man and poor."
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