Faith in Jesus Christ

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James
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by James »

Steve it's not about him being wrong it is about you being wrong. Betsy may deal with feelings in a healthy manner and be just fine with her spirituality- that's something that you don't know about her so I think your judgment here is out of place.

Jesus yoke is easy

you guys are like an Iron backpack.
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Steve
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by Steve »

Betsy, it's fascinating to see how you envision my process and I can only assure you that you are grievously mistaken. I simply read your statement as you shared it, spotted an error in your statement, contrasted it with what I already know from my studies, and retrieved the source that came to mind. A vain attempt at appealing to authority? I believe that it is not in vain, but is truth and applies to all of us.

If you have additional thoughts about gun rights activists, I'm happy to resume that conversation in the appropriate thread. I am certain that many who seek to defend our constitutional rights are not violent people at all (contrary to your false accusation). Many are humble men and women who simply trust the Lord and the things He revealed to prophets on this topic (which we have covered at great length). You must think so poorly of the great captains of the Book of Mormon and other prophets who have spoken up to defend the rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. That is a shame.
Betsy: My emotions surrounding tragedy are human and natural and I KNOW that if I were to suppress them then it would do unspeakable damage to my spirit.
I believe you are wrong again (and I won't even address the "natural" reference). Elder Ezra Taft Benson quoted President David O. McKay in April 1969 General Conference:
All such evils you must overcome by suppression. That is where your control comes in. Suppress that anger! Suppress that jealousy, that envy! They are all injurious to the spirit.

(President David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, p. 356)
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If I or any other man give counsel that meets with opposition, that intrudes upon the affections, meditations, and feelings of the people, and is harsh to their ears, bitter to their souls, it is either not the words of truth, or they have not the fountain of life within them, one of the two. If the Lord speaks from the heavens, reveals his will, and it comes in contact with our feelings and notions of things, or with our judgments, we are destitute of that fountain of truth which we should possess. If our hearts are filled with the Spirit of truth, with the Spirit of the Lord, no matter what the true words from heaven are, when God speaks, all his subjects shout “Hallelujah! Praise God! We are ready to receive those words, for they are true.”

(President Brigham Young, Remarks made in the Tabernacle, April 1861)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Steve
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by Steve »

James: Jesus yoke is easy

you guys are like an Iron backpack.
And now, behold thy brothers murmur, saying it is a hard thing which I have required of them; but behold I have not required it of them, but it is a commandment of the Lord.

(1 Nephi 3:5)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Ian
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by Ian »

steve makes a good point about the importance of the Holy Ghost. faith is really a spiritual gift administered by the Holy Ghost (moroni 10:11), so it’s helpful to eliminate emotions such as “anger or hurt or defensiveness.”
so let it be written... so let it be done.
James
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by James »

Steve, I disagree with you. I mean, you quoted a scripture, but that doesn't make you right. I think your response to Betsy was wrong. I also think so many of the things you and Ian said about Betsy in the gun control thread are wrong. The things about her being over confident, ill informed, narsisistic, and that is why she fails, etc.
even when she responds to your mother positively, that she starts with faith and includes proactive action, the hammer comes down from Steve and Ian saying her hope is misplaced, judging her emotional experiences etc. it's not the right kind of iron back pack. The wicked take the truth to be hard.
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Steve
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by Steve »

That's ok. As I've mentioned before, don't listen to me then. But do listen to the prophets rather than to the world that is feeding you and Betsy many of the things you've shared on this forum. I am a poor communicator in many ways. I probably do not phrase things in a way that is most beneficial to my listeners or that communicates things perfectly. However, God is perfect. He will communicate with His children through His servants and the children can receive a witness for themselves through the Holy Ghost.

As President David O. McKay invites us in October 1962 General Conference:
In these days of uncertainty and unrest, liberty-loving peoples' greatest responsibility and paramount duty is to preserve and proclaim the freedom of the individual, his relationship to Deity, and the necessity of obedience to the principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ—only thus will mankind find peace and happiness.
And so I proclaim. The reason I have spoken out strongly against Betsy's statements is because she chose to make them in a public venue and many of those statements contradict what the Lord's anointed have said. What she does in private is one thing, but what she teaches as truth in public is another. If it be true, it should be able to withstand the light of the Gospel. If it seems to conflict with those statements made by prophets of God, it's useful to have the two messages placed side by side so that others in our family are not deceived. However, I do recognize the grief that such activities may foster and I've attempted to address some of that in private communications.

Still, I have much to learn and am hoping to improve day by day. I am quite open to any thread that someone would like to start on proper communication to help educate me on better methods.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
James
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by James »

It is great that you want to learn to communicate more effectively. Even though we all do it all day we often are not effective. However, I am not really talking about how you say things. its the actual things that I disagree with. I understand what you are saying and disagree with it.
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Steve
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by Steve »

That's ok, too. Then read around my commentary and focus simply on the block quotes. Those won't let you down.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Ian
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by Ian »

this is another good point. we are commanded to receive the words of the prophets, in faith. "for his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith." (doctrine and covenants 21:5)
so let it be written... so let it be done.
James
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by James »

For a bit, Instead of judging, testifying, proclaiming, and telling me what parts of your posts to read, focus on your own behavior. I spoke up in this thread because of the harm that is being done to Betsy.
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Ian
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by Ian »

james, you're doing harm to this discussion topic. kindly discuss your grievances elsewhere.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
James
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by James »

This thread has been spoiled for a while. But sure, I'm done.
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Tuly
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by Tuly »

Yes, I'm considering a communications thread. I do wonder if we would say the same things we are saying in this thread, face to face. I suspect no. We all want to be understood. When we are not understood some feel not validated and hurt and some on the other hand, don't care if they are validated or not. I actually believe we all have faith in Jesus Christ at different degrees. We exercise this faith in different ways and at different times. My hope would be that it is exercised at all times. I also know that this principle takes years to develop. My faith is not perfect yet, but I hope that I will get there, not so that I can be better than all of you but so that I can handle my trials with cheerfulness and patience, like Alma did in the Book of Mormon. At this point I do ask for more patience and forgiveness from each other. I love you all very much and believe it or not, not one more than the other. Is this possible? - yes, when I exercise my faith in Jesus Christ.
"Condemn me not because of mine imperfection,... but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been." Mormon 9:31
Betsy
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by Betsy »

I will try to say this as objectively as I can. I will even make it apply to the topic. What Steve, Ian, and whoever else agrees with them might not understand, is that the judgement you place on me is inappropriate, outside of your stewardship, devoid of adequate knowledge of the facts, spoken out of defense, and out of self-interest. Here is apostolic validation for what I am saying, if that is the only thing that interests you. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judg ... g?lang=eng
Even the Savior, during His mortal ministry, refrained from making final judgments. We see this in the account of the woman taken in adultery. After the crowd who intended to stone her had departed, Jesus asked her about her accusers. “Hath no man condemned thee?” (John 8:10). When she answered no, Jesus declared, “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more” (John 8:11). In this context the word condemn apparently refers to the final judgment (see John 3:17).

The Lord obviously did not justify the woman’s sin. He simply told her that He did not condemn her—that is, He would not pass final judgment on her at that time. This interpretation is confirmed by what He then said to the Pharisees: “Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man” (John 8:15). The woman taken in adultery was granted time to repent, time that would have been denied by those who wanted to stone her.

The Savior gave this same teaching on another occasion: “And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world” (John 12:47).

From all of this we see that the final judgment is the Lord’s and that mortals must refrain from judging any human being in the final sense of concluding or proclaiming that he or she is irretrievably bound for hell or has lost all hope of exaltation.
Would that I was committing adultery! It is so much more petty than that. I'm figuratively being stoned for my stance in politics. I understand that we do not agree on many policies, but it gives no license to over analyze my sentiments (whether they be angry, sad, happy or whatever) to be WRONG. If you want to learn one key communication skill, it is this. I'm telling you this for your spouse's and children's sake. Never challenge a person's feelings. Never prescribe a person's feelings. Never project your own feelings onto another person. Feelings are never necessarily right, or wrong. They just are. And yes, I know you will quote the "natural man" scripture if I use the term "natural", (which shows such utter lack of maturity and convenient use of a literal interpretation to cut me down) but I am using it anyways because, again, there is absolutely nothing "wrong" about it. There is nothing wrong with being mad. There is nothing wrong with being sad. (Do you remember that I said my feelings were in response to a tragedy? Did you think I was just saying that?) This all should be obvious. But apparently it's not. If you think that it is healthy to suppress anger and sadness, then I am genuinely concerned for the people you deal with on a daily basis. And, even though I have said multiple times that I am not a psychiatrist, Ian has chosen to capitalize on his disdain for psychology with almost every comment he makes to me now. This is the tactic of a lawyer on the defense, not the action of a brother.

I'm not being dramatic in the slightest when I realize that this is falling upon deaf ears. I should know better than to keep trying with people who give me zero credibility. But you know what, I know that is your choice.

Go ahead and take the last word, tell me I'm wrong, etc. etc. I've said what I have to say.
Betsy
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Re: Faith in Jesus Christ

Post by Betsy »

Oh and, thanks James for doing something brave and speaking in my defense. I know I probably don't deserve it, but you did it anyways. Thanks. And I am not saying this just because we agree on some politics. I'm sure there are areas where we disagree. But the basic respect is there, and there is a lot to be said for that.
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