Socialism

[Steve]

Thank you very much, James. I found that source as well, but the digital copy is on loan and is unavailable at present. Fortunately, as mentioned, BYU has copies of the text. Thanks again!

[Ian]

thanks for checking on that quote, steve. i'm sure it's reliable, even though it’s heavily truncated, riddled with ellipses, and extracted from an obscure 1939 study guide by a former sociology professor.

ann asked how increased government control would improve things, given that the government is corrupt and inefficient. the obvious answer is that increased government control would not improve things.

so how do we address economic problems and governmental corruption? we spread the gospel of work. here’s another good quote from 1939:

HAPPINESS IN HONEST LABOR

This fundamental principle of the honor of work is sorely needed in application in the world today. All the fraudulent schemes, the rackets, governmental corruption, and wide-spread public demoralization have their inception and support chiefly in the failure to recognize the dignity and the happiness that flow from honest toil.

What is honest work? I believe it is rightly interpreted only in terms of service, and the value of true service is measured by someone's gain. Such a concept is not only Christian but it lies at the foundation of sound, profitable business. There are innumerable demonstrations of this fact. The kind of work that makes a better product for less cost is what our national economy demands. There are at least two indispensable factors in this kind of work and the efficiency it produces. First, integrity, which includes loyalty; and second, ability. No one can succeed unless he is dependable. If he works for another, he must make his employer's interest his own. If he works for himself, he must be faithful and true to his enterprise or he will fail. The "watch the clock" variety of service, with no interest in the job but to get the per diem, is as much responsible for bankruptcies as any other factor which I know.

Not only must our workers be loyal but they must also be able to succeed. In the highly competitive markets for goods and services, locally, nationally, and internationally, the skills and acumen are usually the deciding features. Ability is generally the product of training and education. The most skillful not only have the best chances themselves but they contribute most to the success of the enterprise with which they are associated. It is a notable fact that during the years of depression, with some exceptions of course, particularly in industrial centers, the really skilled worker has been little in evidence among the unemployed and even when he has been without a job it most commonly has been attributable to arbitrary manipulations of the price structure for services or goods....

CAPITALISM IN ITS TRUE SENSE

This doctrine of work lies at the very foundation of the capitalistic system. Many people misunderstand and misinterpret capitalism. They think that because the word "capital" is used to designate the system that its chief purpose is to make wealthy men who are usually called capitalists and whose wealth, it is feared, is too often accumulated at the expense of poorer classes. I admit that there are instances, altogether too many, where this comes about. But this is not the true concept of capitalism. The capitalistic system in its inner essence, is little, if anything, more than a man's free right to work, to choose his work, and enjoy the rewards of his efforts. In my estimation, it is a most precious thing and it is indispensable to the liberty and freedom of which America boasts. It is the only tried and tested system of free enterprise in this world and every other opposing system is built on an abridgment of personal liberty. For one I do not want to lose it.

But we will lose it if we do not understand it and recognize its virtues. It is not the capitalistic system itself that makes some men rich and some men poor. The men themselves do that, again with some exceptions. The system merely offers the opportunities. There are, of course, abuses within it, as there must always be when humanity is involved. It does not guarantee that all men will be rich, and it is worthy of note that all systems which do usually succeed only in making all poor. To eradicate the abuses within the system is almost as difficult as to reform humanity. But who would advocate killing humanity because they are slow to reform? In this connection I shall be pleased to point out in a moment the bearing of religion on some of the problems of capitalism....

THE GOSPEL OF WORK

Now to return to the gospel of work,—and it is a gospel, if ever God gave us a message and principle for our salvation. It would seem apparent, without further comment, that the spread of this gospel of work is absolutely indispensable to the solution of the problems of our individual and national economy. I think we can lay it down as an almost unfailing rule, because the exceptions are so few, that the loyal, able, skilled, industrious worker is successful. His loyalty is his character. He makes that for himself. His skill is attained by training and education. Even genius is little more than the capacity for hard, sustained work.

Elder Stephen L. Richards, Conference Report, October 1939

[Steve]

Ian, thank you for sharing Elder Richards' conference talk. Along those same lines:

Among us today are purveyors of false philosophies and nostrums who, in various walks of life, are covertly seeking power and would lull you into quiescence through the fallacious thought that public gratuities can give you security through the work of others than yourselves and that you can then live upon the results of the efforts of your neighbors. Wise leaders among us have pointed out time and time again that if you needlessly accept from others such security as man can and should provide for himself, you become a dependent, and that as the proportion of dependents in a nation grows, the standard of living falls, opportunity and freedom disappear, and the possibility of the realization of that "joy" for which men are created is greatly diminished.

(President Harold B. Lee, Teachings of Harold B. Lee)

[Steve]

For those who were unimpressed by my "impractical" solutions:

When we become conscious of the fact that there is no time limit upon the saving principles and power of the gospel but that they may be drawn upon to meet the problems of today and tomorrow, as well as of the hereafter, we will then become the people who will be the light of the world.

The dispensation in which we live is intended to be a demonstration of the power and effectiveness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to meet these everyday problems here and now.
...
The uncertainty of the leadership of men of the world in this day is evidenced by the fact that we have many changing programs that overnight and day by day seem to fluctuate between poles of the greatest of uncertainty. We hear much about "the abundant life" and "social security," and there are some, I fear, who are believers in the thought that these goals will come from working out the philosophies of men.
...
While the world today is groping for a solution (and some of our people, I am afraid, have the mistaken notion that they must look to some development of the philosophies of men in this nation or from nations abroad to solve present problems), the Latter-day Saints should never lose sight of the fact that for over one hundred years the Lord has given us the way and the plan by which might come the solution of all the economic problems of this day.

(quotes D&C 82:14-19)

The Lord gave the details—the minutest of details—of the organization we have come to call the United Order. He told us how consecrations were to be made and received; He told us something about the establishment of stewardships and private ownerships, and how those within such an organization should act.
...
There are some things of which I am sure, and that is that contrary to the belief and mistaken ideas of some of our people, the United Order will not be a socialistic or communistic setup; it will be something distinctive, and yet it will be more capitalistic in its nature than either socialism or communism, in that private ownership and individual responsibility will be maintained. I am sure also that when it comes, it will come from the leaders of this church whom you sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators, and will not come from a man who does not occupy that position. It will not come as a political program, legislated by men not possessed of that authority.
...
In my mind there is grave doubt that any man can abide the day of the Second Coming who is not willing and able to follow the leadership of these men whom the Lord has appointed to counsel and guide us in this day.
...
From the inspired lips of the late President Anthony W. Ivins...:

"I fear this, that under existing conditions we are gradually drifting toward a paternal government, a government which will so intrench itself that the people will become powerless to disrupt it, in which the lives and liberties of the people at large may be jeopardized. They are pouring millions of dollars in this time of need into sources for the benefit of the people and it is a great benefit and perhaps salvation, but it is going to result in this—I am going to make this statement—that if the present policy is continued it will not be long until the government will be in the banking business, it will be in the farming business, it will be in the cattle and sheep business, for many of these debts will never be paid. That will mean the appointment of innumerable agencies. The government now is overloaded with commissions and agencies, some of them administering the very laws that Congress itself has enacted. Someone else should be administering those laws. If you want to save yourself from the bondage of debt and political influences which are not of your own choosing, I ask you to think of what I have said. (Conference Report, October 1932, pp. 111-12.)"
...
Today we are here because our ancestors listened to the counsel of President Brigham Young and turned deaf ears to the pleadings of men like James J. Strang, Sidney Rigdon, and others who would have led us from the path of truth and right. I bear you my witness in all humility that if your children and my children, our grandchildren, and our great-grandchildren remain faithful to this church, it will be because you and I remained steadfast in the testimony that these men are the prophets of the living God and that we must follow their counsel if we would be saved in the days of peril.

(President Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye in Holy Places, chapter 29)

[Steve]

It is indeed a sad commentary on the loyalty and devotion of the citizens of the United States to those early American ideals if we have come to a time when it is thought that the distressed should look to a paternalistic agency rather than to their own for help in time of need; when it is expected that the cost of calamities must be compensated by the government or by some other agency. I fail to find in such attitudes of dependence on the government, which means an increasing burden of taxation, any show of patriotism and loyalty to this nation that characterized those who pioneered this great country. The first real step toward self-sufficiency and true patriotism is taken when a man resolves in his heart not only to be self-sustaining and independent, but also to aid others to be likewise.

In commenting on the results of a survey made a few years ago that revealed the present-day trends of the thinking of many, a nationally known writer declared, "The escape from a personal and moral obligation which this trend represents could only occur in a society which lacked religious convictions and principles. ... Like the disciples who wanted to send the hungry multitude elsewhere, the voters hope to escape responsibility for the unemployed."

The descendants of the early Utah pioneers are sincere in their convictions that the economic problems of this great democracy, or of any other nation, for that matter, will not be solved by some "cure-all" or patented panacea or by wild schemes of a socialistic nature, but only by the application of the same principles and practices that have made this a "land of the free, and the home of the brave." ...

But the fulfillment of all these promises of the Lord concerning this land and its people was to be predicated upon just one condition, namely, that those who dwell upon this land should worship the God of the land, even Jesus Christ, our Lord. In this event, the nation possessing it should be free from bondage and captivity. Failing in their obedience to God's divine command, they would be swept off when the fulness of his wrath would come upon them because of their repeated iniquities. ...

May I voice a plea for all Americans to love this country with a fervor that will inspire each to so live as to merit the favor of the Almighty during this time of grave uncertainties, as well as in times to come. I would that all men could believe in the destiny of America as did the early pioneers: that it is the land of Zion; that the founders of this nation were men of inspired vision; that the Constitution as written by the inspiration of heaven must be preserved at all costs.

(President Harold B. Lee, Ye Are the Light of the World, chapter 21)

[Steve]

Another divine ideal included in His plan is the supreme importance of marriage in the development of the individual and of society. Commenting upon Jesus' teaching regarding this principle, Charles Kent declares:

The wisdom of his conclusion is confirmed by modern sociology, which recognizes in the family the historic and actual basis of all stable society. Today the prevailing disregard of the rights and duties of the family is demonstrating anew their supreme importance. Leaders in modern thought are beginning to see clearly that the only final solution of our greatest political, social and economic problems must come through the faithful and efficient training of the individual in the home.

(President David O. McKay, Steppingstones to an Abundant Life)

[Edward]

Haha! This quip came up in a Jeeves and Wooster episode I saw today that was making fun of socialists in the early century:



Wooster, "Where did you learn all that stuff about the revolution?"

Jeeves, "It is as well to know exactly what tunes the Devil is playing, sir."

[Ian]

that's funny, thanks edward. one of my favorite shows.

[Angela]

I really like that show!

[Ann]

the obvious answer is that increased government control would not improve things.

That is what I would imagine as well. I asked because I would like to understand the thinking behind the opposite point of view. Thanks to James for your response. Could you provide more details? How would a total socialist revolution work in the US and how would it really improve things? I did read the article about Denmark, thanks for posting. Some of it sounds really good. However, I would need to read up on the history of that nation to better understand the context. My experiences are limited, but from a healthcare standpoint, I have seen how people take advantage of and undervalue resources when they don't have to pay for them or work for them. I have also seen what happens to some people when they go on disability and no longer work for themselves. This is not to say that all people respond in a similar way, or that I don't value these services or support the programs to a certain extent.

I am not offended by Steve's preachiness. I do hope, however, that it doesn't push people away from really considering the prophetic counsel in the quotes and scriptures that you share. Of course, I know that it is up to each person to control his/her own response.

Edward's post from Jeeves and Wooster made me very happy. I love that show! As I write, Bryn and I are also trying to find which episode it is so we can watch it again. In that scene, isn't there a man who helps with their bags who has some type of prosthesis on his face? It gave me the impression that he was a WWI veteran who had been wounded in that war. I was going to include my thoughts on why they included that in the setting of Jeeves' and Wooster's conversation that Edward posted, but realized that I think I need to go back and study that history and watch the episode again to better understand the context...

[Ann]

Oops, the quote didn't go with that scene at all!

[Tuly]

The episode is called "Comrade Bingo" - season three.

[James]

Ann,
The idea of a socialist revolution was somewhat of a joke. Bernie sanders revolution is more realistic. The point of the Denmark article is that their government effectively uses their resources. The idea that government is inherently bad at anything government ever tries to do is commonly used by libertarians. You've seen people take advantage of free bees. I've seen my father, a hard working individual earning 6 figure income face devastation when my sister almost died. After performing tests Drs said her life was in imminent danger she needed to be admitted to an in patient treatment facility. Insurance was supposed to cover it. But it didn't after months of fighting through technicalities. So my dad drained his savings, borrowed from his retirement fund, and put a second mortgage on his house so that he could write a check for a hundred thousand dollars. The rest of the developed world has universal health care and is doing fine with it. From a broad perspective I see capitalism not as Gods plan and freedom but as an inequality machine. A builder of walls of separation. Members of sodas and Gomora had the mind set "what's yours is yours and what's mine is mine." On he other hand socialism moves the focus on ours. It breaks down walls of separation and unites. After a devastating war the Brits thought, "how can we unite and rebuild our society?" The answer was a socialized system called the NHS. Today it's the oldest universal health as system and one of the best. As the Mormon correlation developed and the 1940s came on a string of prophets topped off with president benson vocalized political opinions about socialism and Marxism. Ian tried to minimize my quote from the priesthood manual. it shows how quickly things changed in the hard working bee hive state. Remember that the socialist party had a stronghold in Utah. Bernie sanders is not a socialist. Democratic socialism= by the people, for the people.
Real socialists don't like the term because it allows a whole lot of capitalism to go on. I am not offended by Steves preaching either. I don't beleive that liking things like egalitarianism, socialism, and communalism lead to a need to be preached at but I still read his words and read those numerous and lengthy quotes (the quotes very quickly). As the semester winds down I will be able to post more thoughtful responses. We don't have Internet so I am posting from phone.

[Steve]

Thanks, James, for reading my posts. And thanks for your responses, especially as you're posting from a phone. I know how challenging that can be...on both accounts.

[James]

Ann, as a physician, do you view health care as a need or a privilege or commodity? I argue that it is a need. Therefore delivering it in a capitalist system that is inherently based on inequality is not justifiable. It should be delivered based on need.
Steve said the problems of our world are not systematic. The neoliberal revolution involves a system. The system is doing what it is supposed to do.