Ian wrote:we’re not interested in your anti-mormon literature, sorry.
Betsy wrote:There are others who browse this forum who might be, so...
So, you admit it's anti-mormon literature?
Betsy wrote:There are interested parties in this family, don't worry!
It seems you do. Betsy is reading anti-mormon literature. That settled, WHO are these interested parties? Can you name names, or why on earth should we believe that? Being coy is far from being credible. And Betsy, I am frankly disturbed that you seem to be wholly willing to trust all these outside sources, and yet you insist that we take the words from the prophets with a grain a salt.
Betsy wrote:Thanks for reading it Angela, I understand that learning can be tiresome.
Betsy wrote:I'm sorry you feel that way. Remember you were the one saying that reading it was a "waste of your time". You may feel free to spend your time reading things that only fit with your world views.
Furthermore, you insult Angela because she doesn't want to read your material, act arrogantly by claiming she doesn't want to "learn," as though your attempt at being 'open-minded' was some kind of virtue, and you reject OUR beliefs as close-mined while closing your dialogue just as firmly to us as you claim we do to you. That kind of blatant hypocrisy is uncalled for, and there is no justification for being so patronizing.
Come off it. If you want to have a discussion, fine, but WHO are these "others who might be interested?" Name some names and stop acting like you represent some poor oppressed souls who have lost the power to stand up for themselves. It is condescending to them, reflects poorly on you, and is honestly alarming to me. You have made your position clear - you aren't sure about a lot of things, and think that looking to other sources outside orthodox church practice and teachings is somehow going to enlighten you above the average mormon. Fine, we all have times when we need to figure things out. But when you open your mind too much, a lot of trouble can get in. I look at open-mindedness as a terribly risky attitude, despite current intellectual fads. And it doesn't give you the right to judge or condemn others as being provincial or closed-minded just because they don't want to read whatever you are reading. You are doing the exact same thing, but putting on airs of superiority which are only hurting your own attempts to present your ideas.
Betsy wrote:I can give anyone here the phone number of my bishop if you are concerned about my worthiness. No joke. Why has nobody done this.
Because you're the one responsible for your own worthiness. And Bishops are not authorized to disclose ANY information about a member's worthiness, not even to their own family.
Betsy wrote:I'm clearly causing some discomfort though. A natural consequence of having your worldview challenged, I suppose. Ian's standard argument now has become "this is false". Followed by, nothing, to back it up.
The discomfort is that you seem to be going down pretty unorthodox paths. And don't talk down like that. You speak as though we are a bunch of closeted provincial countryfolk who have never been exposed to the world and its ways before. Seriously, you have no more exposure to the ideas and learning of the world than anybody here, and far less than some. And you have even fewer sources than Ian, and back up your ideas with even less sources and material.
I counted.
Last edited by Edward on Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
I think it is worthwhile to discuss why the church is as true as the Gospel.
I admit I was hoping Brother England would clarify what the Gospel is specifically. It seemed like he knew, but I suppose he did not feel it was relevant to his point. I think it is worth reviewing. The word Gospel means "good news." The good news is that Jesus Christ has made a perfect atonement for mankind that will redeem all mankind from the grave and reward each individual according to his/her works. It is neither a set of "perfect principles or natural laws," nor "the closest approximation that inspired but limited mortals can receive."
I noticed that England cited the first section of the Doctrine and Covenants a couple of times. There have been only a handful of moments in my life where I have felt i literal burning inside of me as a witness of the presence of the spirit, and about five years ago I received such witness while reading this section of scripture. After I read the article provided by Betsy, I took the liberty of reading the whole section again, and it was a tremendous comfort to me. I feel like it very adequately explains why the church is as true as the Gospel.
Here is the complete first section to the Doctrine and Covenants. I don't normally do long quotes, but please read all of this bearing in mind that it is the Lord Himself speaking to the world.
1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.
2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.
3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.
4 And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.
5 And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.
6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.
7 Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled.
8 And verily I say unto you, that they who go forth, bearing these tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, to them is power given to seal both on earth and in heaven, the unbelieving and rebellious;
9 Yea, verily, to seal them up unto the day when the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked without measure—
10 Unto the day when the Lord shall come to recompense unto every man according to his work, and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.
11 Wherefore the voice of the Lord is unto the ends of the earth, that all that will hear may hear:
12 Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh;
13 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth.
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;
18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;
21 That faith also might increase in the earth;
22 That mine everlasting covenant might be established;
23 That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers.
24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.
25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;
26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;
27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;
28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.
29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.
34 And again, verily I say unto you, O inhabitants of the earth: I the Lord am willing to make these things known unto all flesh;
35 For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion.
36 And also the Lord shall have power over his saints, and shall reign in their midst, and shall come down in judgment upon Idumea, or the world.
37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.
My brief observation is that many like England's essay because it has provided them some degree of consolation during times of distress, whether it be emotional, spiritual, social, etc. If there are any people in the family who are under any such anxiety, i hope they will reach out to the people who truly care the most. In spite of the "open" nature of this forum and the foibles we all clearly have, I am convinced that the people who care the most are here. Mr. England would be glad people like his essay, but he does not care about us as much as we.
I hope my response is not considered too sanctimonious. I do feel Section 1 is very relevant to this thread's topic heading, and I am genuinely concerned for everybody's well-being (and not just the usual victims of our attention, though them too).
Betsy, you are being petulant with your whole "prove it!" jabs, especially those towards Ian, and I imagine to Bryn and I too. But now your position is clear.
The Gospel is not about proving. It's about believing. Believing in Christ, and in the words of His servants the Prophets. Once you start demanding proof of an Eternal Plan based on Faith, you will develop an appetite for facts that will never be satisfied. You are picking the Gospel apart to make sense of it, instead of believing it for what it is - a Gospel of Faith. Faith in God, and in Christ, faith in their chosen messengers the Prophets, and in all the revelations we receive from them. It's so simple, every child can learn it. It is Black and White, Right and Wrong, Good and Evil. If we try to make it more complicated, or dense, or intellectual than that, we fail to see the beautiful and simple Whole of the great Plan of Happiness.
As Tolkien wrote, “He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.”
Last edited by Edward on Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
Focusing on the philosophies of men, pursuing “gospel hobbies” with excess zeal, and elevating rules over doctrine are ways we may look beyond the mark.
We live in a world where the latest story, the buzz, the hype, the “new thing” is much sought after and then publicized throughout the world. Movies, television, and other media often celebrate heroic gestures, dysfunctionality, conflict, and sexuality rather than the quiet, everyday acts of sacrifice, service, and love that are so much a part of the Savior’s message and example. The wild rush to find the new often tramples on what is true.
The 17th chapter of Acts gives an account of the Apostle Paul’s visit to Athens. Athens had been in a long period of decline but still was proud of its philosophical traditions. The account mentions the Stoics and the Epicureans, whose philosophies were among the more dominant of the time. The Stoics believed the highest good was virtue, and the Epicureans believed the highest good was pleasure. Many Stoics had become proud and used the philosophy as a “cloak for … ambition and iniquity.” Many Epicureans had become hedonists who took as their motto “Let us eat and drink, for to-morrow we die.”
Paul was invited to address this difficult mixture of people on Mars Hill. In Acts 17:21 we read, “For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing” (emphasis added).
Paul attempted to gain their attention by referring to an altar that contained the inscription “To the Unknown God.” But his real message was the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. When the crowd realized the religious nature of this message, some began to mock him, while others, equally uninterested but perhaps more polite, said, “We will hear thee again of this matter” (Acts 17:32).
This Athenian response to Paul was not unlike that of the people described by the prophet Jacob during an even earlier period: “But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble” (Jacob 4:14; emphasis added).
Today there is a tendency among some of us to “look beyond the mark” rather than to maintain a testimony of gospel basics. We do this when we substitute the philosophies of men for gospel truths, engage in gospel extremism, seek heroic gestures at the expense of daily consecration, or elevate rules over doctrine. Avoiding these behaviors will help us avoid the theological blindness and stumbling that Jacob described.
Substituting the Philosophies of Men for Gospel Truths
Some people seem to be embarrassed by the simplicity of the Savior’s message. They want to add complexity and even obscurity to the truth to make it more intellectually challenging or more compatible with current academic trends. The Apostasy occurred in part because of this problem. The early Christians adopted the Greek philosophical traditions, trying to reconcile their own beliefs with the existing culture. The historian Will Durant wrote: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. The Greek mind, dying, came to a transmigrated life.”
Some in their spiritual immaturity attempt to appear sophisticated and intellectual. Instead of accepting revelation, they want to dissect it and add dimensions and variations of meaning that distort its beautiful truths. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has pointed out, “The Jewish people … rejected the gospel, in part because it lacked adequate intellectual embroidery.” We look beyond the mark when we refuse to accept simple gospel truths for what they are.
Gospel Extremism
Another sign of spiritual immaturity and sometimes apostasy is when one focuses on certain gospel principles or pursues “gospel hobbies” with excess zeal. Almost any virtue taken to excess can become a vice.
Certain members have wanted to add substantially to various doctrines. An example might be when one advocates additions to the Word of Wisdom that are not authorized by the Brethren and proselytes others to adopt these interpretations. If we turn a health law or any other principle into a form of religious fanaticism, we are looking beyond the mark.
Some who are not authorized want to speak for the Brethren and imply that their message contains the “meat” the Brethren would teach if they were not constrained to teach only the “milk.” Others want to counsel the Brethren and are critical of all teachings that do not comply with their version of what should be taught.
The Lord said regarding important doctrine, “Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me” (D&C 10:68) and “That which is more or less than this cometh of evil” (D&C 124:120). We are looking beyond the mark when we elevate any one principle, no matter how worthwhile it may be, to a prominence that lessens our commitment to other equally important principles or when we take a position that is contrary to the teachings of the Brethren.
Heroic Gestures as a Substitute for Daily Consecration
In a lecture at Brigham Young University, James S. Jardine, former chairman of the board of trustees of the University of Utah, indicated that when he was a student, he thought “of consecrating [his] life in one grand, heroic gesture” but came to realize that “consecration is not a once in a lifetime event; it is a daily devotion.”
When I was young, I too wanted to prove myself through some heroic gesture. My great-grandfather David Patten Kimball was one of the young men who helped carry the members of the Martin handcart company across the Sweetwater River. That sounded like the kind of consecration for which I was looking. Later, as I visited with my grandfather Crozier Kimball, he explained that when President Brigham Young sent the men on their rescue mission, he instructed them to do everything they possibly could to save the handcart company. Their consecration was specifically to “follow the prophet.” My grandfather told me that consistent, faithful dedication to one’s duty or to a principle is to be much admired. As heroic as it was for David Patten Kimball to help rescue the pioneers, it might be equally heroic today to follow the prophet by not watching immoral movies or by refraining from using vulgar language.
My mission president put all this into perspective for me and taught that, in some cases, seeking to perform a heroic effort can be a form of looking beyond the mark. He shared a wonderful poem that reads, in part:
O, one might reach heroic heights
By one strong burst of power.
He might endure the whitest lights
Of heaven for an hour;—.
But harder is the daily drag,
To smile at trials which fret and fag,
And not to murmur—nor to lag.
The test of greatness is the way
One meets the eternal Everyday.
Some members profess that they would commit themselves with enthusiasm if given some great calling, but they do not find home teaching or visiting teaching worthy of or sufficiently heroic for their sustained effort.
God uses us “not according to our works, but according to his own purpose” (2 Tim. 1:9). We are looking beyond the mark if our consecration is conditional or does not involve daily devotion.
Elevating Rules over Doctrine
The Savior was concerned when others elevated rules over doctrine. In Matthew 23:23 [Matt. 23:23] we read, “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles pointed out that Jacob’s teachings with respect to looking beyond the mark applied to the Jews of Jesus’ day:
“They took the plain and simple things of pure religion and added to them a host of their own interpretations; they embellished them with added rites and performances; and they took a happy, joyous way of worship and turned it into a restrictive, curtailing, depressive system of rituals and performances. The living spirit of the Lord’s law became in their hands the dead letter of Jewish ritualism.”
Doctrine usually answers the question “why?” Principles usually answer the question “what?” Whenever we emphasize how to do something without reference to why we do it or what we do, we risk looking beyond the mark. At the very least, we fall into the trap Paul described to the Corinthians: “For the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life” (2 Cor. 3:6).
Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has used the example of teaching our Aaronic Priesthood deacons the doctrines and principles of sacrament meeting so they will understand that the rules they follow (such as dressing appropriately and passing the sacrament in a nondistracting way) support what the Lord would have us accomplish in sacrament meeting (renewing our covenants and remembering the Atonement in a reverent manner). In many areas we are guided only by doctrines and principles rather than rules. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.” We are responsible to the Lord for how we respond in such situations.
Those who are committed to following rules without reference to doctrine and principle are particularly susceptible to looking beyond the mark. Equally dangerous are those who get mired in rules and are thus less willing to accept change resulting from continuous revelation.
The “Mark” Is Christ
When we look beyond the mark, we are looking beyond Christ, the only name under heaven whereby we might be saved. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said, “Jacob saw that the Jews would look ‘beyond the mark’ and stumble in their search for the Holy One of Israel, this literal Son of God to be known as Jesus Christ: ‘By the stumbling of the Jews they will reject the stone upon which they might build and have safe foundation.’”
One of the great tragedies of our day is that many so-called Christian scholars refuse to accept the divinity of Jesus Christ. To some He is merely a great teacher. This is the ultimate example of looking beyond the mark. It happened in Jacob’s day, it happened in the meridian of time when the Savior was on the earth, and it is happening today when the gospel has been restored to the earth.
One of the great challenges of this life is to accept Christ for who He is: the resurrected Savior of the world, our Redeemer, our Lord and Master, our Advocate with the Father. When He is the foundation for all that we do and are, we avoid the theological blindness that results from looking beyond the mark, and we reap the glorious blessings He has promised us. “Come unto me, ye blessed,” He tells those who follow Him; “there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father” (Enos 1:27).
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
If there are any people in the family who are under any such anxiety, i hope they will reach out to the people who truly care the most.
This is a wonderful idea, and I am thankful that I have people who genuinely do care about me.
To be completely honest, however, I wouldn't exactly call Edward's response as particularly "caring". He is attempting to shut me down and out. He told me to "come off it", and that I am somehow being too intellectual, yet I am not as smart as Ian. "Seriously, you have no more exposure to the ideas and learning of the world than anybody here, and far less than some". What a thing to say. I do not see this as an effort to make me feel wanted or included in the discussion. I am glad Bryn is convinced that the people who care are here, but I think I need a bit more convincing.
Again, I meant no insult to Angela, yet I can see where it could taken as offensive. I am sorry. I wanted to clarify how much it is her right to do and read whatever she pleases. Also I was being sincere in that learning can be hard. This is a process I am going through. Reading some of my contemporary art literature can be downright painful, as just one example. But I am starting to realize that for me, the real growth comes with the struggle. This is not easy for me to read things beyond my comfort zone. Yet I imagine people who did not grow up in the church and who are reading the book of mormon for the first time, with parents possibly saying to them "But when you open your mind too much, a lot of trouble can get in." They too have to struggle.
I have worked very hard not to condemn anyone here, for their close-mindedness or open-mindedness. I have never once said "You are simply wrong in some of your views". This is the epitome of close-mindedness. No, I can only claim that being open-minded has made life more beautiful for me. When I mentioned leaving the garden I imagined how that applies to leaving our comfort zone. No, that does not mean reading anti-mormon literature (an over-zealous, pharisaical accusation made toward me multiple times now) but, as England suggests, going to church and learning from the people there that you would not otherwise associate with. Listening to the prophets and following them, despite their foibles. Sustaining church leaders who you may know could easily fail. Giving people the benefit of the doubt, and letting them rise to the expectation. Leaving the garden was a difficult choice for Eve, and for Adam who listened to her. It was breaking the rules. It was looking at the bigger picture.
Edward said a lot of things wrong about me, but there was one thing he said that was right. The Gospel is not about proving. The irony is that even when I have attempted to appease the black and white thinking of some by quoting prophets and apostles who speak the same truths I am speaking, they were still able to reject it by basically saying "Well I just don't agree". Thus totally breaking the rules of their logic that everything we do is to be literally directed to us by a prophet or scripture. I am glad that I have "even fewer sources than Ian, and back up [my] ideas with even less sources and material".. I am less anxious to prove my point than I am in expressing the way I approach faith. I like to read the scriptures, but I do not attempt to shove it down my family's throat, concerned that they will never read them otherwise.
Betsy: This is not easy for me to read things beyond my comfort zone.
Are you reading all of the quotes we share?
Betsy: Yet I imagine people who did not grow up in the church and who are reading the book of mormon for the first time, with parents possibly saying to them "But when you open your mind too much, a lot of trouble can get in." They too have to struggle.
You're likening reading the Book of Mormon to reading rogue blogs?
Betsy: I have never once said "You are simply wrong in some of your views". This is the epitome of close-mindedness.
No, that is false as well. There is right. And there is also wrong. It's not close-minded just because something that is "wrong" is not accepted as "right." Many of the things you say are simply wrong. That's not intolerance talking. That's not a closed mind talking. That's the Lord talking through his prophets. We can hold your statements up against divine light and see if they align with the Lord's words. If they do not, they are simply wrong.
Betsy: When I mentioned leaving the garden I imagined how that applies to leaving our comfort zone.
Leaving our comfort zone is not as important as holding to the rod. Leaving our comfort zone would be continuing on the straight and narrow path despite its difficulty. It is enduring to the end when others point their fingers. That is very uncomfortable for a time, I suppose, but gets more and more comfortable with the reassurance of the Holy Ghost.
I was disregarding truth I could rely on and instead found myself being drawn to the often-outlandish claims of Internet lore.
Sometimes, the truth may just seem too straightforward, too plain, and too simple for us to fully appreciate its great value. So we set aside what we have experienced and know to be true in pursuit of more mysterious or complicated information. ...
...sometimes we take the beautiful lily of God’s truth and gild it with layer upon layer of man-made good ideas, programs, and expectations. ...
Brothers and sisters, if you ever think that the gospel isn’t working so well for you, I invite you to step back, look at your life from a higher plane, and simplify your approach to discipleship. Focus on the basic doctrines, principles, and applications of the gospel. ...
As you exercise a little faith and begin your walk as a peaceable follower of our Lord Jesus Christ, your heart will change. Your whole being will be filled with light.
(President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, It Works Wonderfully!, October 2015 General Conference)↗
Prayerfully select mentors who have your spiritual well-being at heart. Be careful about taking advice from your peers. If you want more than you now have, reach up, not across!
(Elder Robert D. Hales, Meeting the Challenges of Today’s World, October 2015 General Conference)↗
What can Eugene England teach you about the gospel that you couldn't learn from the scriptures, words of the prophets, prayer, etc.? Is it possible that you may be over-complicating your discipleship?
Betsy: It was breaking the rules. It was looking at the bigger picture.
Be careful with this philosophy. Breaking rules sounds really cool, but it's an invitation used by the adversary to draw us away from the iron rod.
Betsy: The irony is that even when I have attempted to appease the black and white thinking of some by quoting prophets and apostles who speak the same truths I am speaking...
First of all, you don't need to appease us with black/white, right/wrong thinking. You should be preoccupied with appeasing the Lord. But I do not recall you providing resources that weren't drawn from dubious searches and/or unreliable sources. Can you show us where you and I disagree on a prophetic perspective that supports your position?
Betsy: I am glad that I have "even fewer sources than Ian, and back up [my] ideas with even less sources and material". I am less anxious to prove my point than I am in expressing the way I approach faith.
Even with your objective in expressing how you approach faith, why would you want fewer gospel sources supporting that approach? If England and anti-mormon therapists are your approach to faith, again, you're simply wrong. That is not the approach taught by the Savior.
Betsy: I like to read the scriptures, but I do not attempt to shove it down my family's throat, concerned that they will never read them otherwise.
There are many individuals in the scriptures who also grew tired of others going off at length about the Lord's teachings. They bound those individuals, cast them into prisons, beat them with rods, burned them alive, and tried to shoot them with arrows. That last one is particularly interesting in light of these recent discussions:
24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.
25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.
26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.
27 But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.
28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.
29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?
30 And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free.
31 He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you.
Our main task is to declare the gospel and do it effectively. We are not obligated to answer every objection. Every man eventually is backed up to the wall of faith, and there he must make his stand. “And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye,” said Nephi, “for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things.” (2 Ne. 33:11.) Every man must judge for himself, knowing God will hold him accountable.
(President Ezra Taft Benson, The Book of Mormon Is the Word of God, April 1975 General Conference)↗
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world. ~George MacDonald
I don't need to read Eugene's article to know that President Benson's words are applicable. And yes, I know that you're brushing off the things I've shared, but I am still grateful for this discussion. It's helped to crystallize true principles—a very worthwhile endeavor for me and my family regardless of your response. I don't know if I ever would have found the simple, clear statements and scriptures that I'll be able to refer to in the years to come.
Still, I wish you would take the Lord's words more seriously. In every one of these threads, you've placed greater weight on secular sources than on spiritual sources. If you reversed your emphasis, I think you'd find what you are desperately looking for.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world. ~George MacDonald
I have read Eugene England's essay carefully. I knew Eugene England personally, though certainly not "closely". I lived in his ward for eight years. At his and his wife Charlotte's request, I have sung in his home (He was an avid patron of the arts). I attended his gospel doctrine class. I maintained a warm association with many of his friends and many of his detractors. I have been in the same room to witness exchanges between him and the likes of Hugh Nibley, Truman Madsen, Ann Madsen, Richard Andersen, and other "intellectual luminaries" of Mormon thought. I have had occasion to personally observe his manner in addition to his messages.
The essay is very persuasive. Brother England's powers of persuasion were very impressive ... to some. He was skilled at artfully, convincingly, weaving scripture and invidious, sometimes even specious philosophical ideas into statements of dubious truthfulness. But I don't remember always feeling the peace that the gospel is intended to bring into my heart when pure doctrine is being taught. Rather than feeling stimulated or edified, I remember often feeling uneasy and unsettled by his challenges. I am sure that some will condescendingly draw the conclusion that my own intellect must hence have necessarily simply not been equal to his vast powers. I am prepared to be patronized in that way. But if that is so, why then did I so frequently feel a sense of confirmation and encouragement when I heard those others expound equally heady and profound ideas?
I never was able to detect any such air of superiority listening to Hugh Nibley, whose intellect, I would propose, eclipsed certainly that of Eugene England, and probably that of any other teacher's of his or subsequent generations.
My counsel to myself and to my children would be to devote more attention to and trust in direct study of scripture and prophetic utterance and less to sources as dubious as Eugene England. Let's give more weight to what the Lord and His prophets say than to what a BYU literature professor says. If it's validation and defense we seek, let's seek it from the sure Word.
"Music's golden tongue flatter'd to tears this aged man and poor."
