Reader Interactions
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James Sneak says
October 11, 2017 at 4:56 pm
I’ve talked to 100’s of LGBT people under 40 that grew up as Mormons. 100% said they have seriously contemplated suicide or have attempted suicide because of the perceived shame they were bringing to their families. It’s simple. No other religion teaches that being LGBT means you are broken, you will never go to the Celestial Kingdom unless you live alone and in shame, but you’ll be fixed in the next life. Solution: go to the next life.
Mike Parker says
October 11, 2017 at 6:43 pm
Hi, James. Thanks for your comment.
I cannot and will not discount the importance of your personal experience to you, but your experience is anecdotal evidence. Unless you have documented evidence, backed up by reliable studies, that confirms your personal experience, then your personal experience doesn’t speak to the larger suicide problem in the state of Utah.
You’ll also need to explain why Utah supposedly has this particular problem, but the same problem is not found states dominated by conservative evangelical Christians (Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, etc.), whose feelings about homosexuality and salvation are fairly close to Mormon views.
It’s terribly tragic that the people you’ve spoken to have felt the way they have. I hope that none of them actually took the final step of taking their lives. There is so much good to live for.
John Mansfield says
October 11, 2017 at 7:35 pm
Homosexuals are a small fraction of any state’s population. The tabulated suicide rates are for the states’ entire populations. The only way suicide by homosexuals could amount to more than a fraction of a state’s suicides is if the rate of suicide by homosexuals were an order of magnitude greater than that for the rest of the population. Is there any reason to think that a quarter or more of young adult suicides are homosexuals?
J. says
October 11, 2017 at 8:00 pm
Excellent post, thank you for unpacking a complex issue that has been oversimplified and politicized.
Tahadden says
October 11, 2017 at 8:34 pm
When I fail to find statistics which should be easily available, I get itchy. Why don’t we have suicide stats from the church so we could profile YM in the church at risk, and why doesn’t Utah have info on the sexual preference of suicide victims? What I can tell is there greatest risk groups in Utah are Native youth and rural youth, and altitude so watch out for the kids in Uinta county
Mike Parker says
October 11, 2017 at 8:45 pm
Tahadden,
I haven’t been able to readily find the reason why statistics aren’t kept on cause of suicide. I suspect that the data are too difficult to collect: Not everyone leaves a note, and many people commit suicide for more than one reason.
Tim says
October 11, 2017 at 9:46 pm
Altitude is a good explanation for Utah’s suicide rate:
http://www.hcn.org/articles/is-altitude ... n-the-west
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114154/
Brett says
October 11, 2017 at 9:49 pm
Mike,
Thanks for this great entry point into suicides in Utah. Too many people trivialize (to take a complex idea and summarize it with a one-sentence conclusion) this message of ‘being a mormon = more suicides.’ That’s not true at all.
At the very least, it will help others to take into considerations the premises that you have brought up. That’s it not simply a “mormons hate gays” at all message. Not even close.
This entry point will allow others to do more studies into this. Hopefully.
I will concede, that I’m sure the church *culture* no-doubt influences some of these end of life decisions. But not because they feel guilty from a gospel perspective, but because their friends, family, aunts and uncles, TREAT them different. And that is unfortunate. I know some 40 and 50-year olds almost openly mock a homosexual server at restaurants we frequent to during lunch and it is embarrassing (and disappointing!). They should know better!! And as bullies go – they make fun of the way they talk, they walk, etc. Everything about them they make fun of.
It bothered me so much after a year of saying nothing, that I lashed out at them about two months ago and told them that this was unacceptable behavior and that I can’t be friends with them anymore. Two months and counting at work and not a word! It’s awkward for sure, but it was the right thing to do.
Mike Parker says
October 11, 2017 at 10:06 pm
Brett,
Thank you for your courage in standing up for decency, dignity, and respect. There should be no excuse for Latter-day Saints to belittle or denigrate anyone, but there are still some who apparently haven’t gotten the message from Church leaders.
Nolan says
October 11, 2017 at 11:03 pm
do you know who it was that committed suicide?
Carl Minks says
October 11, 2017 at 11:12 pm
There are 5 states that rank higher. Which states are those and do we have any data why they are so high statistically? It seems to me that information would be essential to understanding what is going on in Utah. If the church it’s self is the cause then why isn’t the state of Utah higher and what other forces are causing it to be worse in those five states? We need way more information to make sense of this. I find it very difficult to place any significant blame at the feet of the church for this without a lot more data.
Mike Parker says
October 11, 2017 at 11:32 pm
Carl,
All the data are in the Excel file linked in the original post, above. Alaska and South Dakota are #1 and #2, respectively.
Ben P L says
October 11, 2017 at 11:33 pm
I was reading a study of LDS youth suicides in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought (vol. 49 issue 2). Like this article, the study admits there’s little direct evidence that Utah’s LDS culture causes teen suicides. Instead, the study cites anecdotal data that indicate a stronger connection. In examining the data on Utah suicides, the study pointed to 2011 as the year when the suicide rate doubled and the LDS Church supposedly doubled down on its stance on gay marriage. The study paid little attention to the year 2008 when the Church vocally supported Proposition 8, which stopped the practice of same-sex marriage in Utah for a time. During that time there was very little change in the suicide rate compared to surrounding years.
Of course that doesn’t mean suicide is a problem we can ignore. LGBT youth are statistically at a higher risk of suicide than their straight peers. We should call out all forms of bullying and avoid making insensitive remarks about large groups of people. Those who struggle with homosexual feelings or who have decided to live such a lifestyle are still children of God and deserve our love and respect.
James says
October 12, 2017 at 1:18 am
James Sneak says that “No other religion teaches that being LGBT means you are broken, you will never go to the Celestial Kingdom unless you live alone and in shame, but you’ll be fixed in the next life. Solution: go to the next life”
Not quiet true. I was brought up as one of Jehovah’s witnesses. To them it is a terrible thing to be gay. When I came out 30 yrs ago, at the age of 20, I lost EVERYTHING. My family, and my friends. Neither have spoken to me in that time. I have 6 siblings and none of them informed me of my parents death. If I was to see any of my siblings in the street, they would walk on by. I am an outcast to them. One to be avoided at all cost.
They have a system of shunning which forbids any member from talking to me. Even saying Hallo is not allowed. I have been in a store and a JW has been infront of me and they have left rather than be in the same room as me. Being such a tightnit community, word gets around who is an “apostate” to be avoided.
Anyone who leaves or is kicked out is classified as an apostate.
Rob Johnson says
October 12, 2017 at 4:49 am
Why is empirical data needed for a matter of faith possibly causing suicide?
The church teaches faith as the first principle of the Gospel.
Fair and the church asks us to have faith and pray to know if the BofM is true and if JS was a prophet, etc, etc.
Where is the examination that we don’t know all things, it is very possible this could be a faith suicide, issue, so why not instead reach out to the LGBTQ community and see what can be done rather than deflecting the issue to… oh there isn’t enough proof? Why not instead listen to mamma dragons and others and think… uhmm if this is true what can we do?
Maybe we could petition the General Authorities to pray to know about the other two glories of the Celestial Kingdom… Or is the church only about the top tier level of the celestial kingdom? With gays being able to be married legally, isn’t it possible that they could have full blessings of the gospel outside of a temple sealing?
But wait… Didn’t Joseph Smith and Brigham young get sealed together? Didn’t young men get sealed to other men, in situations where they didn’t have parents that were believing, and they crossed the plains and didn’t have any connection with their family that may have disowned them?
Are we so quick to disown the LGBTQ community? Is this really how a merciful God that atoned for the sins of all man kind would really react? Is God so judgemental that he only cares about the top layer of the celestial kingdom? Or should we maybe open our eyes? Maybe realize that there might be more? Why not have faith that God really knows what He is doing and has a plan for all of His children?
Where is the attitude of finding the one sheep? Caring for it, giving it what it needs? Why is the attitude more Christ centered rather than protecting an imperfect church?
What will really be interesting is if you delete this comment. Will it be posted? Will we use comments to deflect this? Will we just want to point the issue of death of precious souls to somewhere else? Or instead, will we take action to try to do everything we possibly can to help prevent another death?
But wait… oh that is right, you don’t speak for the church but you have funding for the church? Where is the backbone? Where are the Nephi’s and Ammon’s and Daniel’s at? Where is the Moses that went to God and received the 10 commandments… oh, just thought of something… Why didn’t the 10 commandments not say thou shalt not be gay? Maybe because we should first look to love God and all of His children and start loving them as we love ourselves?
I’m ashamed that you would deflect issues like this? I would rather you say, you know, I don’t see any hard core data to help support this, however, if there is even the slightest hint that this is true, I have already started doing x,y and z to help do everything I can to prevent the next suicide… oh wait.. I did provide a hotline… woot woot, I really do care.
Is someone experiencing suicide really going to see the hotline and think from this article that you give a “darn”… really?
essay says
October 12, 2017 at 6:43 am
The accuracy of reporting of suicide is also a variable. Suicide as a whole has been under reported due to the stigma that’s attached to it. For example, in the past, it was common to report a suicide as an “accidental overdose” or some such thing so as to give some relief to the family. The accuracy has gotten better over the years as it’s importance has been more emphasized, which may explain some of the overall national increase numbers. Therefore, it could be reasoned Utah may be just better at reporting.
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 6:53 am
James,
I’m terribly saddened to hear of your experience. Latter-day Saints do not have a doctrine or policy of “shunning,” and we teach that everyone who strays should be loved and welcomed. Unfortunately, not all Saints live this; we need to do better.
Jana says
October 12, 2017 at 8:55 am
I would suspect that gay suicides are higher than average in Utah due to the LDS hostility for gay relationships, but also suicide risk is augmented also because of the tightly restrictive dogmatic environment. Recently, the LDS missionary age was also lowered which could increase the immediate pressure on young Utah teens.
Please allow me to paint a picture of life for someone who does not fit in the environment in which they’re immersed:
I find myself reeling from the death of a longtime acquaintance. She died prematurely, she was in a very large LDS family growing up in Mormon Central. Even way back twenty years ago, she was a black sheep of the family. I don’t know all the details, to be clear, but she did things like not go to church and other Mormon-prohibited things that non-LDS people consider normal experience of healthy development. She eventually married and had children, but it was always within that Mormon paradigm of bouncing between worthiness and unworthiness. I know that we should not blame everything on the church, and I do not know how she died. Her family surely loved her, they grieve, and they express hope in eternal families.
But a part of me is so crushed for this woman. I could be way off on my analysis in her case, but I think that we can say there are cases like the one I describe, many times over: an individual does not fit into Mormonism for one reason or another, they retreat and rebel and are not consistently allowed a way to be a good, honorable person in the eyes of their community but also outside of the Mormon mindset dictating rigid rules and personal choices. So they suffer and struggle, not having a really safe place to heal and grow into a worldview that is healthier for them. And maybe they develop unhealthy coping mechanisms that serve to deteriorate their relationships and reinforce the black sheep stereotype, seen by others but most crucially themselves, that Mormonism teaches: be righteous and faithful and you will prosper, and if you struggle and dwindle, only repent and you will be happy.
I was not able to go to her funeral, but chances are the bishop or stake president preached the Plan of Salvation over her casket in the ward chapel. She will always be the one who “had her struggles.” Dry heaves of tears and pain, guys, this is what I am feeling. It’s for the invisible people who do not find a way to adapt within Mormonism but are also unable to thrive outside the safety of that group’s full approval and support. Maybe this is one thing that drives us, this subreddit. Listening and speaking so that people can be seen, really seen, by others who understand. Helping each other find and create places where we can be in full honor and dignity in our own conscientious choices and journeys.
I grieve for those not seen in their full dignity.
If you’re hurting, please reach out. Don’t forget that what you do day in and day out can make a positive difference for yourself and others.
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 8:58 am
Rob,
Thank you for your thoughtful and passionate comment. Hopefully I can adequately respond to what I think are some misperceptions you have.
As I mentioned in the first paragraph of my original post, anyone lost to suicide is a terrible tragedy. According to the CDC, LGB youth are six times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexual youth. And Utah is clearly a state where teen/young adult suicide is a serious problem. I do “give a darn” about this problem, and so do the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I think you misunderstand the relationship between faith and evidence. We can know the things of God and their truth through faith, but only after study and careful consideration. Faith is not the source of statistical data that can help us understand social problems; faith can, however, motivate us to do something about social problems, once we understand them.
God calls upon all of us to care for others, to find “the lost sheep,” and to show unconditional love. This message is found in scripture, and is also taught by modern leaders of the LDS Church. That does not mean that God has dropped all standards of conduct and behavior; what it does mean is that you and I are not called to judge, but rather to love and serve. God will judge the hearts and actions of his children, while we minister to all in need.
It’s pretty common for online articles that discuss suicide to include information to help people who are considering suicide at that moment. Just because I included links to suicide help lines doesn’t mean that’s the extent of how I care about this issue or that I’m trying to deflect anything. You’re attributing intentions and motivations to me that I don’t have.
I’ll restate my original point, hopefully in a way that will be clear to you: Suicide is a problem in the United States, and especially in Utah. Gay, lesbian, and bisexual individuals are more likely than straight individuals to attempt suicide—in Utah, in the United States (the South and Midwest appear to have the highest rates), and in virtually every country in the world (including countries with cultures that widely accept gays and allow gay marriage). But there’s no evidence that gay teens and young adults are more or less likely to commit suicide in Utah than in other states. Singling out Utah’s religion and culture for supposedly being the cause of LGB suicides to a greater degree than other states is not backed up by any evidence, and is unfair to the people of Utah and members of the LDS faith.
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 9:07 am
Jana,
Unfortunately, I tend to think that you are correct: There are too many LDS families who are unwilling to love and accept their children who don’t choose to follow the gospel principles they were raised with. This is a terrible thing to do to a family member.
LDS Church leaders have repeatedly taught that we’re to love our children and other family members, even if they don’t hold to the same beliefs that we do. I’d like to think that Latter-day Saints are getting better at doing this, but intolerance and judgmentalism are deeply ingrained in human nature and difficult to break. I, myself, struggle with similar family issues, and am doing my very best to simply love without judging.
Also, I should point out that the claim in your very first sentence — “gay suicides are higher than average in Utah” — is a claim that is completely without evidence, which was the point of my original post. Gay suicide is a problem everywhere, and families who condemn and shun their gay children is a problem in every state and among people of all religions and no religion at all.
Jana says
October 12, 2017 at 9:53 am
Mike, thanks for your expressions of understanding. I openly assume that gay suicides are higher than average in Utah and give a reasoning for it. While many other sectors of society are increasingly becoming accepting of gay marriage, Mormons are doubling down against it. And Utah is highly entrenched in Mormon culture. The claim is certainly subject to scrutiny and requires more research, but is a reasonable one.
Rob Johnson says
October 12, 2017 at 9:59 am
Mike,
You seem to miss my point, even though I didn’t say it. I’m not here to argue your points. I’m here to help spread some light in a manner that you all seem to miss here at fair mormon. Stop being apologists for the church and start being ambassadors of Christ.
Your article gives a presentation that if there isn’t any facts then it must not be true. I realize you aren’t saying this out right, but others will hear the tone and use it as an apologetic reason to go on and dismiss the issue all together.
What is the purpose of writing such an article? Who is it helping? It isn’t helping the LGBTQ community, right? So who is it helping? The church to deflect possible blame / guilt / shame? Who is needing the warm fuzzies and why are the warm fuzzies needed?
Wouldn’t a real solution would be, to write an article of… hey we don’t know why we are so high, but geesh let’s see what we can do and post what is being done and who can help and why help?
Why not post comments about
https://encircletogether.org/
Why not post comments on self worth and shame and guilt and handling it?
Why not post links to LGBTQ active member resources that assist others?
You are missing the mark. Let’s say that one person, just one took your comment to imply that gay suicide is not higher in utah and mention something to a LGBTQ acquaintance or an LGBTQ person hears a comment from them that implies the impression of it being “untrue that teachings of the LDS church of Gays in the church doesn’t ever lead an increased rate of suicide”. Yes, out of context, but just one person takes this out of context and shares it… and that LGBTQ person kills themself as a partial issue with this article, or what their friend / acquaintance says. What is someone to think about this article that is currently trying to work with a Bishop that references this article that has friends that have committed suicide. Ever talk to Benji Schwimmer and ask him? He has lost how many LDS friends now to suicide?
Don’t you get the influence you all have? Someone comes on here and finds justification for their beliefs or intolerance. Regardless if you meant it. You would have just attributed to it.
I have a youth that died a year or so ago. I was not versed in the LGBTQ community. I wonder what I could have said differently to help him feel more of worth. Did I ever say anything that ever would have lead him to believe that his worth was any less than anybody else?
The “crap” is real. Your articles are public and you have as much skin in the game for any reader that takes your content and applies any such justification on their perceptions.
So stay away from articles of no evidence here and focus on what you can do with what we know we have issues with. Publish those success stories. Publish how you helped an individual and how there is hope. How does your article bring any light or hope into this world or situation? Try eating some humble pie and really look to God and seek for guidance in the stuff you write. Stay away from influences to protect the church. Look to protect God’s children.
If you still don’t get this… take time to entrench yourself into the LGBTQ community. Listen to them.
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 10:02 am
Jana,
As I noted in my original post, American society has become more accepting of gay individuals and gay marriage over the last 15 years, and yet the overall teen/young adult suicide rate across the United States has increased 32% during that time, and states that are open to gay culture and lifestyle have seen even higher increases. The connection between acceptance of gays and gay marriage and the suicide rate among young gay individuals certainly requires more scrutiny and research, but, based on the data available, it appears to have no factual basis.
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 10:22 am
Rob,
I’ve reread my original post, and I find nothing in it that provides any room for someone to justify intolerance or hatred of others. In fact, I specifically and emphatically disclaimed those very things in my post and my follow-up comments. And yet you seem to persist in accusing me of providing cover for intolerant and close-minded people, when I have done nothing of the sort.
More than anything, I am in interested in truth. For a long time now, critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ doctrine against homosexual behavior and gay marriage have falsely accused the Church and its leaders of causing increased suicide rates among gay people, especially those that are young. While there are anecdotal accounts of gay people committing suicide over struggles about feeling accepted withing LDS culture (at least some of which are certainly true), there is no data-driven evidence that the Church’s policies have led to higher suicide rates in Utah. Anyone who makes such a claim is repeating an unfounded, biased assertion, and it needs to stop.
It is certainly true that many gay youth — in all states and among people of all beliefs — experience hopelessness, ostracization, and even violence from family members and their communities. This should never be tolerated. Everyone has a fundamental human right to dignity and respect. This is taught by LDS Church leaders, and Latter-day Saints who do not follow those teachings are violating the counsel of their leaders and the express commandments of God.
We can and should stand for love and compassion, and also stand for the truth.
Jana says
October 12, 2017 at 10:31 am
Mike, the facts of the higher teen suicide rates in Utah combined with the fragile postion that age group is put in by the prevailing culture, especially lgbt youth, are enough facts to form an educated hypothesis inquiring whether the Mormon church’s recent policy changes both for missionaries and gays have a negative influence on teens’ mental health.
Jana says
October 12, 2017 at 10:34 am
Mike, it is a reasonable concern that the untenable position of gays in the church has a negative effect on gays in the church.
Jana says
October 12, 2017 at 10:38 am
Elder Oaks just called for LESS acceptance of gays, for goodness sakes. So what needs to stop more, educated, informed concern or perpetual villification of loving, committed relationships?
Tom Montgomery says
October 12, 2017 at 10:46 am
Suicide is complex. And the LDS Church’s increased politicization and teaching against same sex marriage does correlate to the same period of time of the exponential increase in the suicide rate, especially among 10-17 youth.
However, the definitive answer you want doesn’t exist because Utah refuses to track the sexual orientation of suicide victims (completed or otherwise). Its the answer to the question Utah really doesn’t want to know.
But there is a landslide of anecdotal evidence that has been mounting for years. And all such evidence begins anecdotally until studies (which take years) can prove their validity. Mama Dragons and other in state LGBT organizations have been screaming for years at the top of their lungs that this is a problem in Utah culture. Real people on the ground interacting with these families and suicide victims.
But too many of you will do nothing until years down the line it is proven and you are forced too. Until then, you can hide behind “its being politicized” or “its just the altitude”.
A recent study at BYU found that 52% LGBT students “had considered self harm”. 52%!!!! And this is among the best and brightest that make it past ages 10-17. And even if the incidence of LGBT people is only 3-5%, if 52% of those are considering self-harm, that will dramatically increase the overall incidence of suicide in the state.
This is a real phenomenon. You a) just aren’t listening and b) you don’t want it to be true.
http://universe.byu.edu/2017/01/20/lgbt ... -suicide1/
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 10:47 am
Jana,
What you have just done is form a hypothesis; you now have to test that hypothesis. You may well be correct, but there are no data, as of yet, that back up your claims. All you have, for now, is belief based on your predisposed views on a contentious subject.
Elder Oaks did not call for “less acceptance of gays,” and to make such a claim is to distort what he actually said:
We have witnessed a rapid and increasing public acceptance of cohabitation without marriage and of same-sex marriage. The corresponding media advocacy, education, and even occupational requirements pose difficult challenges for Latter-day Saints. We must try to balance the competing demands of following the gospel law in our personal lives and teachings, even as we seek to show love for all. (Emphasis added.)
Acceptance of gay individuals and acceptance of gay marriage are two completely separate things. Please don’t confuse them.
Tom Montgomery says
October 12, 2017 at 11:02 am
Mike,
In Oaks talk he specifically said quoting James, “whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” Quoting Monson, “it is essential that we reject anything that does not conform to our standards.”
Both of these quotes are in context of opposing same sex marriage and defending the Proclamation on the Family. You honestly don’t think an orthodox LDS parent is not going to hear those quotes and apply them to their child?
We should not befriend the “enemies of God.” We should “reject anything that does not conform to our standards”. This is rejecting language that will be used by orthodox LDS parents and members to shun and abandon LGBT youth.
Rob Johnson says
October 12, 2017 at 11:06 am
Mike,
Seems you just answered my question.
Your purpose for posting is to protect the church. To push anything away pointing to an issue. If there are “no factual evidence” then why do you need to write the article? What does it really provide other than to try to deflect issues against the “infallible church”?
In 15 years… let’s say facts come out to the contrary… then what will your response be… oops geesh would have been nice to know this before so that we could help the community more…
When an item is deflected, it enables those with intolerance to use justification. Bishops, Stake Presidents, Parents, friends, etc.
Stand for the community, stop trying to deflect the issues. Truth is truth, does God really need you to defend it? A lack of facts doesn’t prove anything.
Why write something like this for the church when instead you can ask the church leaders to ask from God for an understanding? Joseph Smith wrote hundreds of revelations within a few short years of direct revelation from God, surely the leaders can find out on this topic right?
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 11:36 am
Rob,
I’ve tried to have a conversation with you, but you seem to read everything I write in the most uncharitable way possible, and assign to me motivations that I know I do not hold.
I wish you the best.
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 11:38 am
Tom,
I can’t speak to what “an orthodox LDS parent” is going to believe, but, when you remove those quotes from the context of the entire talk, I guess it could make it easier to come that conclusion. I’d like to think that most Latter-day Saints have read the entire talk, as well as other statements from Church leaders on treating others with respect and love, and would not come to the forced conclusion that you’re suggesting.
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 11:45 am
A friend of mine just shared with me this recent, comprehensive study of married couples in Sweden that found that, “Among same-sex married men the suicide risk was nearly three-fold greater as compared to different-sex married. … Even in a country with a comparatively tolerant climate regarding homosexuality such as Sweden, same-sex married individuals evidence a higher risk for suicide than other married individuals.”
So it appears that simply accepting and embracing same-sex marriage has not solved the suicide problem among gay men, at least in Sweden.
Daniel Parkinson says
October 12, 2017 at 1:00 pm
Youth suicides have doubled in Utah since 2011 and tripled since 2008. This is a uniquely Utah phenomenon. It has not happened in the rest of the country. Even though we can’t know how many of them are LGBT, we have to consider that the ostracism that occurs in Utah is one of the factors, and there is a lot of evidence pointing to that. It may not explain all of the problem, but it has to be considered and not downplayed. Every time somebody puts the blame on the altitude, then I have to point out that the altitude hasn’t doubled or tripled. If you would like more data and more of the rationals for assuming that it is a significant part of the problem I am happy to provide you with the data and with the analysis.
And I would reiterate the point that you might want to ask yourself why you would want to deflect concern away from such a clearly vulnerable group. If there is no proven connection, but there is a suspected connection, we should be pushing to turn all stones until we understand this problem, instead of writing off very valid concerns about a particularly unpopular segment of our population. I have seen a lot of suffering in this group.
Rob Osborn says
October 12, 2017 at 1:01 pm
Ive studied this quite a bit and from everything I have gathered suicide rates are higher in all western states that are high in elevation. The anomaly is that in and around the heavy LDS communities in Utah and Idaho the suicide rates are statistically lower than surrounding counties and states. Only, its not an anomaly at all. New research suggests that in strong religious family communities suicide rates are lowest. This explains why suicide rates are lower on average in these areas because living in LDS homes is the best suicide prevention program available. One thing that greatly bothers me is that there isnt an actual real statistic on gay youth in Utah that committ suicide even though many claim such exists. Also bothersome is that no statistic is available on how many of those gay youth who committed suicide in Utah were from a strong LDS home. The only statistic available
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... -says.html shows that in Utah the best suicide prevention is growing up in a strong religious home who attend church and participate in family activities.
Cody Hatch says
October 12, 2017 at 1:05 pm
I appreciate the conversation on this, but as FAIR loves to say about Book of Mormon historicity: “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
Certainly, there is a dearth of empirical evidence on this topic, and that lack of evidence cuts both ways. However, the probability of some LGBT youth in Utah attempting suicide due to LDS teachings and culture is greater than zero. I think we can agree on that, so rather than argue over missing empirical evidence either way, let’s focus on those we know are hurting and attempt to prevent even one suicide attempt by loving the crap out of these kids.
Sasha Kwapinski says
October 12, 2017 at 1:12 pm
In 45-plus years as an active Mormon, I have never once been counseled, told, or advised (by anybody anywhere in any capacity) to shun, reject, or refuse to associate with LGBT people. I have never acted that way toward them, or seen any other church member do so. It is certainly true that some LDS members have acted in a cold and unloving manner toward LGBT people as well as to others. Practices like “shunning,” (described by James in his earlier post) , however, are not advocated in the LDS Church. I have been counseled, on several occasions, to show forth love and kindness to LGBT people for example, as well as toward people who have been disfellowshipped or excommunicated from the church.
Lance Starr says
October 12, 2017 at 1:25 pm
It’s amazing to me that an obvious explanation is being (intentionally?) overlooked in this discussion. Has anyone considered the possibility that it is homosexual behavior itself that contributes to these increased rates of suicide? Of course not, because that would be politically incorrect and certainly wouldn’t fit the standard narrative we’ve been given.
Nevertheless, with the recent paradigm shift, far more people who have same-sex attraction have begun to openly embrace that lifestyle. It seems to me that you can very easily make the argument that this is just as much a cause of the epidemic as anything else. Perhaps homosexuality cause people to suffer this internal strife which many on this board are so very eager to lay at the feet of any other external force (culprit) they can find.
However, consider for a moment the internal struggle that may be taking place within these people. Biologically speaking we all have an innate impulse to procreate. However, in a gay person this impulse is directed towards another member of the species with whom procreation is not possible. So, you have the self at war with the self. Certainly, such inner turmoil must have some effect on the person? What does a psyche do when it is at war with itself. We know there are certain medical conditions that can cause a person’s own body to turn against itself. Is the mind really immune to such a thing?
Note, this isn’t even a question of right v. wrong or morality v. immorality, it’s a question of warring biology.
Of course, I could be 100% wrong, but we’ll never know because any research that sought to answer this question would be immediately shut down, with extreme prejudice, because any research that might portray any part of homosexuality in a bad light is going to be suppressed and attacked.
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 1:35 pm
Daniel,
The data from the CDC (see the Excel link in the original post) do not indicate that “youth suicides have doubled in Utah since 2011 and tripled since 2008.” The suicide rate in Utah for ages 10 to 24 was 11.47/100,000 in 2008, 11.20 in 2011, and 16.66 in 2015. That’s an increase of 48.8% since 2008, and 45.2% since 2011 (there was a drop from 2008 to 2011).
From 2008 to 2015, the suicide rate among the same age group rose 44.9% in Colorado, 38.0% in Idaho, 23.1% in Arizona…and 27.9% across the entire United States. Clearly the problem does not lie only in Utah or with Utah’s culture and religious values. Increased suicide among teens and young adults is a problem everywhere.
I am not, in any way, making an attempt “to deflect concern away from such a clearly vulnerable group.” Clearly we need better data and, more importantly, better resources to help people in crisis. What I’m saying (at the risk of repeating myself, yet again) is that there’s no evidence that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its doctrines, or its policies are a significant motivating factor in the rise in youth suicide.
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 1:37 pm
Cody,
You are absolutely correct that we need better resources and more outreach and love to help children in crisis, and particularly LGB children.
Daniel Parkinson says
October 12, 2017 at 2:13 pm
Using the same CDC data you can break out different groups. Please do so, and you will see the problem with the numbers you are using. First do a specific search of the 15-19 age group. You will see that they were seeing a gradually reduction in suicides after 2000 until 2005, but since then it has more than tripled since 2005 and doubled since 2011.
You can do another breakdown and look at age 12-21, which is a bit more difficult but the CDC site allows you to do that (if you need more explanation on how, I am happy to provide more instructions). This group also saw a near tripling in that same time frame.
The reason your stats on 10-24 didn’t seem as remarkable is because age 20-24 has a much higher baseline rate than lower ages, so a tripling among the teens will not show as strong of an increase when their numbers are mixed into the much larger young adult group. Meanwhile, this young adult group has also seen a dramatic increase in suicide, even if it hasn’t tripled, so even that does not deserve to be downplayed.
I am fine with you defending the premise that the church isn’t the cause of the suicides, (even though I might have a different opinion). However, I think we can agree that we do need to look at what our LDS community is doing, and some of our broader community behaviors may be responsible. I don’t believe the church teaches people to ostracize LGBT teens, but many Mormons do believe that following the church does require them to do exactly that. So we have a cultural belief that may or may not come from the church but is certainly present in our community with many people believing that they are following the prophet by doing something that is proven to increase suicide attempts and other bad outcomes among LGBT youth.
What I ask of you, is to inform yourself more about the issues that lead to despair among LGBT youth. This can be tough on a believing Mormon, but it is possible to do so and come out of it a believing Mormon. If you aren’t willing to look at secular data such as the research done by the Family Acceptance Project, then try hearing the stories and getting to know the struggles of some real live LGBT teens. There is outreach for LGBT teens in Utah at places like Encircle house in Provo, and by hearing their experiences you are going to notice trends and are going to understand why the mental heath professionals who are trying to help them are so concerned about some toxicity that exists in our community that leads to damage among these youth. I would also encourage you to talk to some of their active LDS parents and realize what a struggle it is for them when they realize that many of the narratives they are fed about LGBT people rings so false when they see what their children are going through.
There is no question that there is a group of people suffering, and there is no question that our community has historically been failing them. Trying to understand what leads to their despair is paramount for public health and public policy. There is also no denying that we have a serious problem with youth suicide, and whether they are gay or straight we need to explore ALL of the factors that are contributing to these damaging numbers. Some of these factors are going to be difficult for many Utahns, because it will cause a really close reflexion of how we treat outsiders, those who are cast aside, and those who are considered less popular or less desirable. However, we can’t even address these factors until we are willing to study them and look at them without pre-existing ideologies getting in the way.
I think truth is paramount to Mormons in general, so I would expect Mormons to shun the idea of avoiding research or avoiding asking questions that might be challenging. Right now we have people dying every day and we have to consider all the possibilities as to what may be causing this.
Mike Parker says
October 12, 2017 at 2:47 pm
Daniel,
Fair enough. You can slice the data more narrowly, if you wish, as long as you compare it to other states, especially those in the West Mountain U.S. Census region. Looking at Utah in isolation can lead to conclusions that are based in supposition, not evidence.
As I’ve said here (repeatedly), suicide is extremely complicated. Are there young gay people who have taken their own lives because they felt unloved by Mormon parents, were bullied by Mormon peers, or experienced being ostracized by Mormon communities? Absolutely there are, and we Latter-day Saints need to do a better job at loving and embracing and accepting all people, and young, conflicted, gay people in particular.
At the same time, suicide and self harm are almost always behaviors that result from mental illness, depression, and related factors. And teenagers, everywhere, are usually unremittingly cruel. I’ve seen this first-hand: A young woman in my ward who battled depression/anxiety felt like she didn’t fit in with the other girls her age. She believed they were privately mocking her and staring at her. I don’t know how much of that was real and how much was in her mind, but she eventually stopped coming to church, started cutting herself, and had constant thoughts of taking her own life. I tried, in my limited capacity, to get the young women leaders involved and encourage the other girls to reach out to her, but she rejected them and they eventually gave up. I’m glad to say that’s she’s alive and well today, but she’s never come back to church. These things happen, and not just among Mormons.
These are difficult issues with no clear and obvious solutions. And overall increase of love and acceptance, and better community resources and church support would help. I’d like to think we’re making progress on those. We still have a long way to go.
LindaSDF says
October 12, 2017 at 3:30 pm
WHat we need to do, over and over again, is explain to our youth, ALL our youth, that their teen age years are not the time to be concerned with who we want to have sexual relations with. They should not be couple-dating.
Their concerns should be getting an education, making and keeping friends, helping others in need, learning how to be a responsible adult, etc. And LDS youth (at least) need to learn WHY the Lord wants things to be the way He wants them.
And what parents AND children need to learn is how to communicate with each other.
