Do you believe in Santa?

[Betsy]

SANTA CLAUS IS AN ENLIGHTENED DESPOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cousin Alex Hall]

The words of that Robert Stoddard song are very nice.

I thought you were talking to Father Christmas, John? Was that him?

[Aunt Betsy]

John said: "Alex, I would recommend a more careful character study before you take on the role in public. I think that even the broadest of interpretations of the tradition would lead us toward a different portrayal."

I truly do not know who is "playing Father Christmas", but I promise you, it is not Alex. As for myself, whoever it is (and I can also assure you 'tis not I), I rather like the portrayal. Assuming it is a portrayal. For the ways of Santa Claus are not our ways.

John said: "But may your days be merry and bright in any case."

Back atcha.

[Aunt Betsy]

Steve said: "Although, upon further thought, exceptions like Nephi with Zoram, or some of the Nephite captains' trickery with the Lamanites were just that: special exceptions. And they were often in times of conflict.

"Is Santa Claus a necessary exception to the general commandment of honesty?"

It's not a deception, or dishonest; it's a story. It can be abused, but it needn't be. One abuse that is common is the idea that bad children don't get presents (there's no such thing as a bad child, and the threat is either idle or cruel). One of the many very valuable uses of this story is that it allows parents not to take credit for everything.

I tell you this as someone who followed Steve's sister's course with my elder children, but learned better through experience and the Spirit. No one will ever be able to fully articulate why Santa Claus is a good and useful persona, but like Eve and the fruit, I know it is good, and I will partake.

[Father Christmas]

It intrigues me that, whearas I object to logics presuming, seemingly as sacred fact, that dear family and relatives perform damnable acts, yet I do not object to any logic presuming that others perform noble acts. So that if any one would sacredly witness of the good of the figure of Father Christmas, and of a good portrayal of him, I will rest my happy hopes in the possibility that this is true. For have we been taught to hope that any thing may be utterly to waste, or that any action could only be damned? Heaven forbid, and the Christ Child also. Judgment is His. But he has given forginess to all, so that it is ours also. And forgiveness is the wellspring of hope, and hope is reason to suppose that any one or thing may yet have good, any contrary appearances to our eyes notwithstanding. So we strive to see through the light of that merry night of our Lord's birth long ago!

As for allegations of any one here portraying me, who is Father Christmas? There are many true stories about Father Christmas, and many true portrayals of him, by many who portray him true. My hope is that I am one of them.

[Ian]

For have we been taught to hope that any thing may be utterly to waste, or that any action could only be damned? Heaven forbid, and the Christ Child also. Judgment is His. But he has given forginess to all, so that it is ours also.

ok this is getting ridiculous. i mean, this guy doesn't even make sense. whoever you are, your writing is very sappy and annoying. santa does not talk like that.

leave us, Father Pontificator! you have disgraced the name of Father Christmas!

[Edward]

This isn't Santa! It's some preachy imposter! If anybody is about black and white, it's Santa--none of this wishy-washy relativism! Who ARE you?!?! The REAL Santa is good, kind, jolly--enough with this pseudophychoanalitical drivel! And besides, forgiveness comes with a price, and we have to make judgements too! If not, explain the whole good list/bad list, "Father Christmas!"

I denounce you! What have you done with the real Santa! We shall find him and set him free!!!

TO WAR! FIND SANTA!!!!!!:eowyn:

[Aunt Betsy]

AH HA HA!! You are very persuasive, Edward (and witty). I think Santa is powerful enough to weather the assaults, though. The Grinch may have been able to steal presents, but he couldn't stop people from having generally right ideas about Christmas.

And I dunno about that black-and-white business. Santa's a pretty colorful character.

[Aunt Betsy]

I hasten to add to what I've written before, that it was NOT my intention to compare Santa Claus to Mother Eve, nor the Santa Claus story to the literally true Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil event (which we are given to understand, by the way, is framed symbolically). What I DO mean is that one cannot come to an understanding of truth, goodness, honesty, and so forth, by definitions and mortal words (for the letter killeth...).

[Cousin Alex Hall]

All year I'm hearing Thou Shalt Not Spend Too Much Money on Thyself and Thy Family, Thou Shalt Never Watch an R-Rated Movie, Thou Shalt Not Allow Children to Believe That Father Christmas is Real, and now I'm hearing Thou Shalt Not Preach? Has that last been practiced much by those preaching it? With all due respect, I think the real question is whether what is preached is liked, not whether preaching in general is to be disliked

And aye, we should make judgments, though judgments should center not on whos but whats

I mighta thought we'd had a few other Huntingtons holding by a substantial philisophical disagreement with Steve. Phew! Near-miss.

[Edward]

I mighta thought we'd had a few other Huntingtons holding by a substantial philisophical disagreement with Steve. Phew! Near-miss.

What is that intended to mean? I don't get what you're saying. All I know is that my kids will believe in Santa as long as I can keep it that way. As for the other issues, nobody has implied that kids shouldn't believe in Santa except in thoughts meant to help us explore the issue. And "thou shalt not" has been mistakenly perceived as such. And as for the preaching, preach away, but "Father Christmas" wasn't making much sense sometimes.

As for R-rated movies and spending too much money, the Lord said that. We've just repeated it.

[Father Christmas]

Edward, you just said that "Thou Shalt Not" was a misread on Alex's part, and in the next breaths you declared point blank that the Lord has said we should not do some things. What?

And you might as well say the sky is red because the Lord said so. But then, a lot of the time the sky is red. But you never mind that sometimes it isn't. Context is everything, and you almost never examine context. Context can change the application of a commandment, supposing even we have in mind something that is truly a commandment. Context can also change the application of a principle behind a commandment.

Your spirits of vigor and devotion are among the noblest in many lands. And you have great many insights and humor to offer the world. That goes for everyone in this discussion group.

Anyway, I'm zipping through Cali now. Just taking a short breather at the moment. Maybe you'll spot me. Maybe you won't.

I'm typing from my laptop astride my sled. I have to, to keep up with the children these days - yes, my elves make great use of GPS technology but in non-intrusive ways - children these days are all over the place at the drop of a hat; you never know where they may be. Paper, pen and post used to be enough to keep track of them. Not anymore. It's distressing, but also strangely more interesting and fun.

There are an awful lot of children in California who should get coal in their stockings, but whom I simply can't bring myself to give coal, because they and their parents don't know better. False traditions and all that. But trust me, I give quite a few children coal, just to throw off thier parents, who are usually more to blame.

Even so, the good to bad ratio strongly favors the good, among all children, all places, the world over.

None of you folks get any coal

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL, AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT!

[Ian]

the real santa believes in good and bad. this imposter santa is a wishy washy, liberal relativist. forget plainness and strict obedience. this guy wants to talk about "context." he wants to talk about changing the application of commandments and principles. he wants to talk about exceptions to the rule, rather than the rule itself. he wants the commandments to be complicated, so that he can more easily justify his own actions and habits. he considers those who interpret the commandments plainly to be simple-minded, naive and self-righteous. he is usually defensive, easily offended and terrified that someone might be judging him. other than that i'm sure he's a cool guy! but he's not santa.

[Edward]

Ah, "Father Christmas," but you contradict yourself. You say

Edward, you just said that "Thou Shalt Not" was a misread on Alex's part, and in the next breaths you declared point blank that the Lord has said we should not do some things

But have you looked at the "context" in which I said that? I said that when it comes to Santa, I don't know what the Lord says, so I don't say anything. But we do know what he has said regarding movies and money. My dear "Santa," if you are going to be so contextual, then you have no argument at all, for if so then everything depends on context, and your argument has about as much substance as the air into which it is uttered. After all, according to your relativist philosophies, there really is no truth, is there? As for me, if the Lord says the sky is red, it's red. Why would I dare question that?

No, Father Christmas, the Lord will not tolerate exceptions until they first demonstrate obedience. Only those worthy by obedience will merit any kind of exceptions. Truth is eternal, and never contextual; right and wrong DO NOT CHANGE. That's why we have prophets, to tell us what we must--MUST do. If we do what they say it is right. If we don't, it is sin. Yes, Father Christmas, sin. If the prophet gives you an exception, ok, but if he doesn't? Sin. The saints seem to fear sin more than anything else--not committing sin, but labeling it and admitting it. Don't be afraid to call sin sin, Father Christmas. It's the best way to fight it, for Satan would LOVE if we believed that nothing was really sinful, or if were too afraid to judge the righteous judgment which will thwart his plans. Conquering our fears and having courage to judge righteously will give us a confidence and happiness beyond the safety nets we create by saying "don't judge" and "look at the context."

[Betsy]

uhhh....Merry Christmas?!