Do you believe in Santa?

[Angela]

if this were the real "santa" i'd start studying judaism.

[Ian]

hanukkah harry! he's cool.

[Father Christmas]

Ian: I appreciate the great concern you show.

Edward: now surely nobody could be convinced that there is no right and wrong, for to say so is to say that it is right that it be so, which contradicts the proposition. That would be relativism. And it is correct that right and wrong do not change. But the situations in which they apply can change greatly, even to becoming bewildering as to ascertaining the right. And I'm sure you have also observed that a certain group of religious leaders recorded in the Bible attempted to procure a hard and fast rule for every situation, and while they had far worse problems, yet taking that approach to the very extreme they became incapacitated as regarding right and wrong, and crucified their very Lord under false auspices of heresy.

Angela, perhaps you should indeed study Judaism, as you might not have realized that Santa is a Jew. Don't most venerable institutions owe something to the Jews?

Edward, I am sure you have also realized that SANTA is only two-letters off and an anagram of SATAN.

Betsy: a right merry observation, that, or at least it was, more recently in China than in California.

May we so often hope to bid a merry adieu until the next season of gifts, very engaging though the dialogue be

[Edward]

But the situations in which they apply can change greatly, even to becoming bewildering as to ascertaining the right.

That is not true. It is a lie. Moroni taught us how to judge. The Lord taught us how to judge. The Holy Ghost's purpose is to help us to judge. You, Father Christmas, should never believe that they are so hard to determine. If you are living the commandments, without the relatavism and notions of context and all that stuff, you will ALWAYS know what is right. Always. Why? Because the spirit will help you and teach you what is right. That should be the one of the most comforting and sublime truths we cling to. Do not reject that truth because you find it hard. Live it.

[Angela]

That's it, IT'S GO TIME!

[Ian]

...it is correct that right and wrong do not change. But the situations in which they apply can change greatly, even to becoming bewildering as to ascertaining the right.

that is a very sad and foolish mindset. but your philosophy is not uncommon. you will find many people in the world to agree with you. but not in this forum.

bye bye!

[Cousin Alex Hall]

I was addressing exactly the things you say we shouldn't do, Edward, when I was summarizing yours and others Thou Shalt Nots.

Santa said the situations in which commandments apply can change. He wasn't talking about changing commandments. That's silly. And what do you mean by saying goodbye to Santa? We need him this time of year!

Here are some quotes on this question of whether truth comes easy - emphasis added, from prophets and conference addresses.

The same conditions exist today: we must ask the right questions; we must seek in the right places and knock on the right doors. That sometimes is very difficult to do.

"We all need guidance in a world that is sometimes confusing."

"May I extend a word of caution? There are those who feel that if we follow the Savior, our lives will be free from worry, pain, and fear. This is not so!"

Worry and pain includes struggling to decipher what is right and wrong in a world where finding the right guidance is sometimes difficult and sometimes confusing.

"We all need guidance through life. We obtain it best from the standard works and teachings of the prophets of God. With diligent effort, we can achieve that guidance".

Diligent effort is necessary for obtaining guidance because we live in a world where finding the right guidance is sometimes difficult and sometimes confusing.

Getting the message?

"Faith is not just push a button and you get the answer." .. "Personally, for some vital decisions I have experienced the grueling, anguishing struggle that precedes a confirming answer." .. "Your peace of mind, your assurance of answers to vexing problems, your ultimate joy depend upon your trust in Heavenly Father.."

Is he describing situations where it was easy to ascertain what is right, what the answer is? Not by a landslide. He first says faith doesn't obtain answers to questions with the push of a button. That means more elaborate work is involved. Maybe cranking a lever. Maybe adjusting some knobs. Maybe looking for another button altogether. He second says he has made some decisions - and decisions always hinge on what is right or wrong, better or worse - he says he has made some decisions involving grueling, anguishing struggles before finding what is right, finding an answer. He third said, flat out, that there are vexing problems - which we need to find answers to - and he first and secondly says that's not always easy.

Now Ian posits that someone is looking for exceptions to rules - never mind looking down on others. (May I challenge whether Ian is doing the latter?) Someone looking for exceptions to rules desires to disobey, has a will to disobey. The will is the drive behind the search. Either that or the person has lost free will, or is a servant of ignorance. Those last two options contend with the very thoroughly argued Father Christmas. But as for ill-will, ascertaining that is only important where there may be any emotional, spiritual, or physical danger. And lacking danger, so many times it is surmised here that there is ill-will; maybe every tenth page. This over any remotely substantial disgreement where others are reading the very same scriptures! Does surmising ill-will from others produce good will? Isn't this the season of Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Men?

Ascertaining the truth is not always easy, and anyone who says otherwise is looking for exceptions to rules, wants the commandments to be complicated so that he can justify his own actions and habits, and considers others simple-minded, naive, self-righteous, and is terrified that someone might be judging him.

Such statements are absolutely terrible. The truth is not always easy to ascertain, but clearly such utterly gruesome surmises issued as judgments would be good reason for anyone to be terrified.

[Lili]

Ok, this is fairly , but:

Santa said
"my elves make great use of GPS technology..."

which reminded me of an *awesome* dream Mindy had a year or so ago: She and I were on some crazy mission to save Santa! I think she said that I was driving santa's sleigh at break-neck speeds, while Mindy was trying to figure out how to use a GPS...(this dream obviously came after watching too many episodes of 24 back-to-back!)

(So, I guess he _is_ real--at least in our dreams!

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a Happy New Year!

PS Kermit the Frog explores the Santa question in the videos/sesame street link, page 2






(I really wish I could be there in 5 days spraying silly string at you all...I've never had such a blast for a New Year...!)

[John]

It was my impression that Santa Claus is a Catholic since his first "name" is actually a title bestowed upon persons who have been canonized by papal authority. Additionally, it seems clear that he hails from somewhere in central Europe. Now, Father Christmas is distinctly an English sorta fella. This gets rather confusing because our friend who CLAIMS to be Father Christmas routed his posts through Germany. This tends to give credence to the probablity of him being an imposter.

[Tuly]

Lili, we will miss you too. Maybe 2007?. Hey let's look foward to discussing the Easter Bunny!

[Ian]

i disagree with alex. i don't believe that it's difficult or confusing to find the "right guidance." of course life's trials are difficult. of course it is often difficult to choose the right. but we all know the difference between right and wrong. the hard part is obedience.

alex's quotes speak of the difficulty of overcoming life's challenges and hardships, but not of discerning between right and wrong. we all have difficult trials to overcome. but it is also given to us to know right from wrong. "God is not the author of confusion." (1 Cor. 14:33)

what do you think Christ meant when he said "my yoke is easy, and my burden is light?" i believe that if we strive to obey the commandments with exactness, we can remove confusion from our lives, in spite of our trials. we will always have hardship, but we will always know what is right, and that will bring peace and happiness.

the commandments are clear and simple to understand. "prophets and apostles through the ages are our compass from the Lord. His direction through them is plain; the charted course from them is sure. His path, like His yoke, is easy." (elder lowell snow, nov. 2005 ensign)

"His path, like His yoke, is easy." satan would have us believe otherwise. he is the author of doubt and confusion. but moroni wrote that it is given to us to be able to judge between good from evil, and that we can know "with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night." (moroni 7:15)

"With the help of the Holy Ghost, any earnest person can easily understand the gospel and receive its great personal blessings… I am grateful for the gospel’s beauty and simplicity, and I bear witness to you that it is true and easy to understand." (elder j. jolley, nov. 1997 ensign)

you see? it can be easy, if we permit the Holy Ghost to communicate to us.

so if anyone is wondering where to find guidance, how to find the answers to life's questions, and how to overcome doubt and confusion, this is the simple solution: make an honest attempt to obey all of God's commandments. of course it isn't easy to obey all of the commandments all of the time, but if we just try to obey with exactness, we will always know the difference between right and wrong. there will be no doubt, even though we are imperfect. check this out:

In righteousness there is great simplicity. In every case that confronts us in life there is either a right way or a wrong way to proceed. If we choose the right way, we are sustained in our actions by the principles of righteousness, in the which there is power from the heavens. If we choose the wrong way and act on that choice, there is no such heavenly promise or power, and we are alone and are destined to fail.

The question arises: How can we know which is right and which is wrong? Just as our Heavenly Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to create this earth and to execute and govern all things pertaining to it, so He sent the Holy Ghost to act in providing the light of the Spirit to men on the earth.

The light of the Spirit is organized as a communication system to transmit concepts of truth into the minds of the children of God. The Holy Ghost, by way of the Spirit, will enlighten our minds and give us clarity of understanding of concepts of truth if we obey the laws which govern the use of the Spirit. This is the way that our Father in Heaven teaches us right from wrong. If we are willing to learn His ways and follow them, we will never have to guess, but we will always know for sure the difference between right and wrong.

In righteousness there is the fulfillment of faith and hope. Every blessing that God has promised to His children is predicated upon obedience to His laws and commandments. Obedience to His laws and commandments is what makes us righteous, and that righteousness qualifies us to be worthy of the promised blessings.

Each of us lives with his or her own situation. There are challenges with health, economy, literacy, singleness, loneliness, oppression, abuse, transgression, and a never-ending list of existing conditions. The solution to all these challenges is righteousness.

elder william bradford, nov. 1999 ensign

we all have different "situations," as alex says. but that does not mean that the commandments apply to each of us differently. i don't believe in situational obedience. if you feel confused about whether a commandment applies to you, consider the source of that confusion. if you want to know whether a commandment is true, obey it.

[Father Christmas]

Before I comment on this debate, I'd like to say that claiming Father Christmas to be a Jew was a joke And I will tell you certainly that this portrayer - or imposter, if you will - is a Christian, English friend, and very rarely a relativist in situations where I suppose truth hard to find, but on the whole and the vast majority of the time I am a strict absolutist

I agree in general with the argument Ian makes. Ian, I don't think Alex ever said he thinks the truth is always hard to find, which it very much seemed you regarded his argument to say; you start with a blanket disagreement that the truth is not hard to ascertain. But Alex repeatedly used and emphasized the qualifier sometimes, or in other words, the truth is usually not hard to find [in the Gospel]. I also think the first three of the quotes which Alex gave could apply to the challenge of keeping known commandments. But I think they could also apply to ascertaining the truth; and I think the context and words - "seek in the right places" - "sometimes confusing" - leans to the latter. But I think there is a place for both arguments, and I also never saw Alex as saying commandments apply differently to people (as you seem to think Ian), but situations. In other words, truth is truth, but the world is changeable, and so it can sometimes be hard to filter through the World to find the truth. It may be a paradox. I don't know. Just one example of worldly situations needing to access the truth differently would be someone whose career mandates working on the Sabbath. The commandment to provide for the family overrides, in that situation, the commandment to keep the Sabbath as touching not working - such as yours truly this last Christmas Eve A more extreme example is the Mormon boy Helmuth Hubener during World War II whose local Bishop was a Nazi, and Hubener rejected Nazism and was ostracized by his Bishop for it - and eventually executed by the Nazis. In that situation does Hubener owe allegiance and loyalty to his local branch of the Church, even though the Nazi position on life is expressly contrary to the Gospel, or does he owe his allegiance to a God who is higher than the brief turmoil of the earth, yet not currently fully in Hubener's part of the earth?

I do think the last quote Alex gives inarguably expresses that sometimes (and not anywhere near always) it is difficult to ascertain what is right in some situations. I'd reiterate what Elder Scott says:

"Personally, for some vital decisions I have experienced the grueling, anguishing struggle that precedes a confirming answer." .. "Your peace of mind, your assurance of answers to vexing problems, your ultimate joy depend upon your trust in Heavenly Father.."

This says, as plainly and straightforwardly as can be, that in some of his decisions he has had a struggle before finding a confirming answer [to a question of what is right, or an explanation of something, or whatever truth it was he sought]. And he also states that there are vexing problems. It can't be plainer than that. If some problems are vexing, that means they are difficult to sort through. I think this says that sometimes the truth can be hard to ascertain - however, when it is ascertained after such struggle, I agree that the Spirit provides sureness and certainty. Certainty is the foundation of Religion - President Gordon B. Hinkley has said that. I think both arguments are true; sometimes the truth can be hard to find, but on the whole and for the vast majority of things, how to follow the Gospel and commandments is clear and straightforward.

I am aware this very same argument may have been made before earlier here. Alex, ya gotta realize some may just never agree with you on some things; and I might suggest the same for those who disagree with Alex I think every point of view has been well enough expressed that clearly agreement is at an impasse.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

[Ian]

father christmas claims to be a strict absolutist most of the time, and a relativist some of the time. how can this be? i can see why the world seems so confusing and paradoxical to you. relativism breeds confusion. there is no place for relativism of any kind, within the gospel. are God's laws not eternal?

The great power of all relativistic approaches is that they allow the individual to judge his own actions. This is why almost any of the approaches strikes a responsive, sympathetic chord in all other relativists. Korihor found many who were pleased with his relativism, even though they may have rejected much else of what he said. “And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness.” (Alma 30:18.)

In stark contrast to the virtually infinite number of personal choices available in the broad way of relativism is the way of the Savior. That strait and narrow way is to do as he did: not to seek our own will, but to do the will of Him who sent us. It is to obey him in all things, obeying his word, which is his law, as it is freshly written in our hearts from revelation to revelation. It is to rely solely upon his merits, counting him as the only fountain of righteousness. It is being willing to die for his sake, crucifying the old person with worldly wants and desires in order to be born again “as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.” (Mosiah 3:19.)

Thus the gospel teaches a way that is absolute—absolute in that the formula for righteousness is always the same for every person and for every time and circumstance: take the name of Christ, always remember him, keep all of the commandments that he gives unto us. There is no other way to righteousness, for whatsoever is not of faith in Christ is sin.

Now it is little wonder that Korihor found much success in commending relativism to the members of the church in his time. For while the Church is true, the members of the Church here on earth have not yet overcome the world, although most are still trying. For many, the effort is hard, the price too great. Whether they leave the Church or not, they abandon the narrow way and settle for some variety of relativism.

But there is one thing relativism can never do, even within the Church. One who subscribes to any of the versions of relativism just listed will never (unless he repents) be brought to those sacrifices that will prepare his soul to spend an eternity in blessing others. Relativism can never purify heart and mind, or transform body and countenance into the image of the Savior.

Chauncey C. Riddle, “Korihor: The Arguments of Apostasy,” Ensign, Sep 1977, 18

Relativism involves the denial of the existence of absolute truths and, therefore, of an absolute truthgiver, God. Relativism has sometimes been a small, satanic sea breeze, but now the winds of relativism have reached gale proportions. Over a period of several decades relativism has eroded ethics, public and personal, has worn down the will of many, has contributed to a slackening sense of duty, civic and personal. The old mountains of individual morality have been worn down. This erosion has left mankind in a sand-dune society, in a desert of disbelief where there are no landmarks, and no north, no east, no west, and no south! There is only the dust of despair!

As Shelley said of a fallen statue, “Nothing beside remains. Round the decay of that colossal wreck boundless and bare, the lone and level sands stretch far away.” (From “Ozymandias,” Family Book of Best Loved Poems, p. 278.)

Neal A. Maxwell, “Some Thoughts on the Gospel and the Behavioral Sciences,” Ensign, Jul 1976, 70

If men are not steering by absolute truth, they will drift in the rolling sea of relativism.

Neal A. Maxwell, “Why a University in the Kingdom?,” Ensign, Oct 1975, 6

ours is a religion of absolutes. how can you excuse relativism of any kind, father christmas? you use the sabbath day as an example. are we commanded not to work on sundays? or are we commanded to "keep the sabbath day holy?" that commandment applies to all of us, regardless of our work schedule. it's not hard to understand.

people like father christmas tell rare and exceptional stories that have nothing to do with us. what does that world war ii story have to do with anybody here? you try to teach us that things are complicated and confusing. that's not how Christ and the prophets teach us. they teach simplicity.

the world is confusing, but the gospel is not. take your liberal mormonism elsewhere, fake father christmas!

[Edward]

I concur--that talk by Riddle is beautiful!

[Korihor]

I, for one, find Father Christmas to be quite reasonable and persuasive. Some of the members of this forum are far too judgmental. You need to lighten up!