Funny, mines been pretty stable for the last few years. It's the monkey smuggling that gets tricky.
As for evil funds and charitable donations, I doubt the Lord would much care how charitable the acts were because they were founded in deceit and were wrong from the beginning; while he is bound to bless us for the act, that might not matter if canceled out by a greater condemnation garnered by the immoral action. I guess we'd have to ask someone who has experience in shady business and illegal funds. Korihor, what do you think?
How Much Should You Give Away?
ok i didnt intend to begin a discussion about filthy lucre. the question that i posed was about surplus wealth (including "honestly-earned money") and inequality. as nibley said, if i have more stuff than "my fellows," can i claim that God has given it to me? is it a blessing? we often say "we have been blessed" with this and that, or that lehi was "blessed" with great riches. i don't know, i just think that it was an interesting point that nibley made.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
I doubt there's any clear answer. Sometimes the Lord blesses us with abundance, which can include monetary wealth. Other times I think the adversary may try to give us such things in order to shift our focus. In Lehi's case, I would argue that he was "blessed" with riches because of the fact that his focus certainly wasn't on the money. His family even tried to use the money to buy the brass plates. Then again, Laman and Lemuel were not too keen on the idea of losing all of it, so to them it was a curse/hindrance.
So as I write this, I come to the conclusion that the money itself, like everything we have, can be a blessing or a curse depending on how we use it. Same goes for technology. Same goes for free time. Even our own agency, though a great blessing, can enable us to do things we shouldn't.
Having money in this life can help place us in a position where our concern need not be on the daily finances, but on other things instead. Consider the many mission presidents who are financially successful and living comfortably. This allows them to cease worrying about their next paycheck and turn their full attention to the Lord's work. And of course, where much is given, much is required.
We know that abundance has been used symbolically as well, as we are promised "mansions" and "kingdoms." When all is said and done, all that our Heavenly Father has is promised to us. That's significant abundance. Yet, will the money itself matter in the end? Nope.
So as I write this, I come to the conclusion that the money itself, like everything we have, can be a blessing or a curse depending on how we use it. Same goes for technology. Same goes for free time. Even our own agency, though a great blessing, can enable us to do things we shouldn't.
Having money in this life can help place us in a position where our concern need not be on the daily finances, but on other things instead. Consider the many mission presidents who are financially successful and living comfortably. This allows them to cease worrying about their next paycheck and turn their full attention to the Lord's work. And of course, where much is given, much is required.
We know that abundance has been used symbolically as well, as we are promised "mansions" and "kingdoms." When all is said and done, all that our Heavenly Father has is promised to us. That's significant abundance. Yet, will the money itself matter in the end? Nope.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world. ~George MacDonald
well i'm not sure that i agree entirely with steve. i definitely disagree with what you said about money putting us in a position to focus on the Lord's work. we are all commanded to make the Lord's work our first priority, and to not worry about our next paycheck. even if i am very poor i shouldn't be worrying about my next paycheck (although that requires faith, of course). our monetary wealth is irrelevant when it comes to "turning our full attention" to building the kingdom. the Lord will take care of our needs if we ask for it (and often even when we don't).
one way to think about our surplus wealth is that it doesn't actually belong to us at all. it may be under our stewardship for a short time, but that doesn't mean that we own it. the Lord owns it, and wants to see what we will do with it during our temporary stewardship.
agency is a gift. God will not take away our agency, because he gave it to us as a gift. but money is different. God can take away our surplus wealth any time He wants. that's why i am wondering about wealth and money, and whether it is truly a gift/blessing/whatever. i suppose it can be a blessing to us to be made "stewards over x amount of wealth," but is the money itself a blessing? did God really give it to us? He still owns possession of it, doesn't he? or does Satan lay claim, as "prince of the earth"? it's all very interesting.
one way to think about our surplus wealth is that it doesn't actually belong to us at all. it may be under our stewardship for a short time, but that doesn't mean that we own it. the Lord owns it, and wants to see what we will do with it during our temporary stewardship.
agency is a gift. God will not take away our agency, because he gave it to us as a gift. but money is different. God can take away our surplus wealth any time He wants. that's why i am wondering about wealth and money, and whether it is truly a gift/blessing/whatever. i suppose it can be a blessing to us to be made "stewards over x amount of wealth," but is the money itself a blessing? did God really give it to us? He still owns possession of it, doesn't he? or does Satan lay claim, as "prince of the earth"? it's all very interesting.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
Sorry, Ian, you misunderstood my comments. Obviously, everyone should have the Lord's work as a first priority. But consider the example I shared of a mission president. Why do you think most (if not all) of the general authorities and mission presidents have relatively solid finances? At any rate, if you still disagree with me, then yes, we disagree.
If you're very poor, whether you like it or not, you're going to have to worry about your next paycheck. The Lord is not going to throw money at you just because you're out preaching the gospel in the street all day, everyday. Faith without works is dead. And taking the time to "work" requires sacrificing time that could have been used elsewhere.
True, monetary wealth should not affect our principal focus and eternal perspective, but it is relevant when it comes to being able to dedicate more time to the Lord. A guy who has to work two shifts just to make ends meet will simply not have the time to do as much for others as one who doesn't have such an obligation. It's a matter of logistics, if nothing else.
I agree with your stewardship comment. All we have really belongs to the Lord.
An additional comment should be made concerning the benefit of wealth. BYU would not be around if it were not for generous individuals who had acquired wealth in this life. The conference center would not have been built. We would be unable to maintain temples. If you ever wonder about the value of wealth in the Lord's work, talk to my sister Jenny who works for LDS Philanthropies. Ask her to recount some of the things Elder Eyring has said to her on the matter. Money can definitely be a blessing.
If you're very poor, whether you like it or not, you're going to have to worry about your next paycheck. The Lord is not going to throw money at you just because you're out preaching the gospel in the street all day, everyday. Faith without works is dead. And taking the time to "work" requires sacrificing time that could have been used elsewhere.
True, monetary wealth should not affect our principal focus and eternal perspective, but it is relevant when it comes to being able to dedicate more time to the Lord. A guy who has to work two shifts just to make ends meet will simply not have the time to do as much for others as one who doesn't have such an obligation. It's a matter of logistics, if nothing else.
I agree with your stewardship comment. All we have really belongs to the Lord.
God can take away many things, but they can still be gifts. We can receive "gifts of the Spirit" and yet those things can also be taken away. Those gifts are the Lord's, even when we may possess them for a short time. I would consider them blessings. Health is similar. Money can be as well.Ian:agency is a gift. God will not take away our agency, because he gave it to us as a gift. but money is different. God can take away our surplus wealth any time He wants. that's why i am wondering about wealth and money, and whether it is truly a gift/blessing/whatever. i suppose it can be a blessing to us to be made "stewards over x amount of wealth," but is the money itself a blessing?
Like I said, I think the adversary can use earthly treasures to draw us away from the iron rod. He can use technology. He can use sports and recreation. There are many things he can offer us. Yet those things can also be used to bless our lives. It's Satan's counterfeit principle.did God really give it to us? He still owns possession of it, doesn't he? or does Satan lay claim, as "prince of the earth"? it's all very interesting.
An additional comment should be made concerning the benefit of wealth. BYU would not be around if it were not for generous individuals who had acquired wealth in this life. The conference center would not have been built. We would be unable to maintain temples. If you ever wonder about the value of wealth in the Lord's work, talk to my sister Jenny who works for LDS Philanthropies. Ask her to recount some of the things Elder Eyring has said to her on the matter. Money can definitely be a blessing.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world. ~George MacDonald
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Aunt Betsy
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:09 pm
- Location: Orem
Hey Steve, just what is your “underground drug business”? Ginger root? Sarsaparilla? Maybe minerals? Do you have a stake in Edward’s mines, which it’s nice to know have been stable for several years?
Seriously, tho’, Ian, Hugh Nibley was a great but flawed man (for instance, he was a liberal Democrat, lol (oh but that lol doesn’t mean he wasn’t really a liberal Democrat). I am grateful for his testimony and for his utter commitment to the gospel, for the application of his brilliant mind to furthering understanding of truth, and especially for his humility, his anti-authoritarian stance, and his willingness to face any subject. In the case of D&C 49: 20, Nibley is right that nobody has any business aggrandizing himself on account of the gifts of God, but overall, his inferential leaps in this passage contradict other scripture and are logically insupportable.
The scriptures counsel us to acknowledge God as the giver of all gifts. Without getting bogged down in a discussion of what a good gift is precisely (not that such a discussion wouldn’t be worthwhile in itself, just that it would be an inane distraction here), I take it as obvious that dishonest and ill-gotten gain can be said to come from Satan, tho’ even there, it is God’s promotion of this earth as a testing place that allows Satan’s “gifts” to proliferate--for a time.
What does the Lord mean by “the world” in this verse? Isn’t it Babel that “lieth in sin”? That “one man possesses that which is above another” reveals to us that “the world lieth in sin” and that Babel is all around us, but it doesn’t mean, as Nibley does imply, that a man may be judged wicked if he possesses more than another, or that any one wealthy man is necessarily accountable for the wicked economic structures of this world. Nor is this scripture saying that inequality is the sole or primary basis of evil. While inequality--of any kind--can tend to foster evil, it also, in this world in which opposition is such an important principle, provides huge opportunities for good.
Those people who turn their hearts wholly over to God, integrating into their souls the truths that all men have equal worth before Him and that everything they have belongs to Him, form a community that through obedience, love, and the atonement will finally change the structure of this world. Then will the world cease to lie in sin. It is ill will (including pride, hatred, disobedience, and all the other products of self-will), not inequality, that is the basis of evil.
Seriously, tho’, Ian, Hugh Nibley was a great but flawed man (for instance, he was a liberal Democrat, lol (oh but that lol doesn’t mean he wasn’t really a liberal Democrat). I am grateful for his testimony and for his utter commitment to the gospel, for the application of his brilliant mind to furthering understanding of truth, and especially for his humility, his anti-authoritarian stance, and his willingness to face any subject. In the case of D&C 49: 20, Nibley is right that nobody has any business aggrandizing himself on account of the gifts of God, but overall, his inferential leaps in this passage contradict other scripture and are logically insupportable.
The scriptures counsel us to acknowledge God as the giver of all gifts. Without getting bogged down in a discussion of what a good gift is precisely (not that such a discussion wouldn’t be worthwhile in itself, just that it would be an inane distraction here), I take it as obvious that dishonest and ill-gotten gain can be said to come from Satan, tho’ even there, it is God’s promotion of this earth as a testing place that allows Satan’s “gifts” to proliferate--for a time.
What does the Lord mean by “the world” in this verse? Isn’t it Babel that “lieth in sin”? That “one man possesses that which is above another” reveals to us that “the world lieth in sin” and that Babel is all around us, but it doesn’t mean, as Nibley does imply, that a man may be judged wicked if he possesses more than another, or that any one wealthy man is necessarily accountable for the wicked economic structures of this world. Nor is this scripture saying that inequality is the sole or primary basis of evil. While inequality--of any kind--can tend to foster evil, it also, in this world in which opposition is such an important principle, provides huge opportunities for good.
Those people who turn their hearts wholly over to God, integrating into their souls the truths that all men have equal worth before Him and that everything they have belongs to Him, form a community that through obedience, love, and the atonement will finally change the structure of this world. Then will the world cease to lie in sin. It is ill will (including pride, hatred, disobedience, and all the other products of self-will), not inequality, that is the basis of evil.
Un oeuf is enough.
hugh nibley was a flawed man? and a liberal democrat? i suppose it wasn't enough just to call him a democrat... he was a liberal democrat! i don't know that i would call that a flaw, considering all the good democrats out there (including lds democrats).
i do like what aunt betsy wrote about d&c 49:20, and i agree that nibley's inference (that inequality is the basic cause of evil) seems to be incorrect. however i don't believe that nibley implied that a man is wicked if he has more possessions than another, nor that any wealthy man is accountable for the wicked economic structures of the world. it seems to me that the point he is trying to make is that we should not "lay claim" to the surplus wealth we receive, but rather, we should acknowledge that it all belongs to God. in other words, we shouldn't say "God gave it to me, so it's mine now," but we should say "God made me steward over it, and now i will distribute it to other people."
speaking of stewardship, by the way, i like this passage from lord of the rings (although it's kind of off-topic):
also, it's true that faith w/out works is dead, but what kind of works are required of us? what about matthew 6? i understand that we must work to pay the bills, but we shouldn't try to get rich just so we can retire early and "really" dedicate ourselves to the Lord.
and you say byu wouldn't be around if not for wealthy people? but where would the football team hold practices? and what about our conference center, and temples? seriously, the Lord does not need our money. what is money to him? i agree that people should use whatever wealth they have to help build up the kingdom. and of course none of us are "wicked" on account of our wealth. but that is no justification for seeking after wealth. you alluded to something elder eyring said, but you didn't say what it was (that's just namedropping).
to be fair, i know that steve didn't say that we should be seeking after riches, etc. i just thought that some of your comments were a little questionable (not wrong, necessarily).
i do like what aunt betsy wrote about d&c 49:20, and i agree that nibley's inference (that inequality is the basic cause of evil) seems to be incorrect. however i don't believe that nibley implied that a man is wicked if he has more possessions than another, nor that any wealthy man is accountable for the wicked economic structures of the world. it seems to me that the point he is trying to make is that we should not "lay claim" to the surplus wealth we receive, but rather, we should acknowledge that it all belongs to God. in other words, we shouldn't say "God gave it to me, so it's mine now," but we should say "God made me steward over it, and now i will distribute it to other people."
speaking of stewardship, by the way, i like this passage from lord of the rings (although it's kind of off-topic):
steve, i'm not sure what conclusion you draw from your observation that most if not all general authorities and mission presidents have "relatively solid finances." i guess "relatively solid finances" doesn't necessarily mean "exceedingly great wealth," but i still don't get what you're trying to say. what if someone gets called to be a mission president or general authority, but doesn't have "relatively solid finances?" should they turn downt the calling, because they wouldn't be able to live comfortably? or are you saying that such a person wouldn't get the call in the first place?Denethor: 'Pride would be folly that disdained help and and counsel at need; but you deal out such gifts according to your own designs. Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy. And to him there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; and the rule of Gondor, my lord, is mine and no other man's, unless the king should come again.'
'Unless the king should come again?' said Gandalf. 'Well, my lord Steward, it is your task to keep some kingdom still against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?' And with that he turned and strode from the hall with Pippin running at his side.
also, it's true that faith w/out works is dead, but what kind of works are required of us? what about matthew 6? i understand that we must work to pay the bills, but we shouldn't try to get rich just so we can retire early and "really" dedicate ourselves to the Lord.
and you say byu wouldn't be around if not for wealthy people? but where would the football team hold practices? and what about our conference center, and temples? seriously, the Lord does not need our money. what is money to him? i agree that people should use whatever wealth they have to help build up the kingdom. and of course none of us are "wicked" on account of our wealth. but that is no justification for seeking after wealth. you alluded to something elder eyring said, but you didn't say what it was (that's just namedropping).
to be fair, i know that steve didn't say that we should be seeking after riches, etc. i just thought that some of your comments were a little questionable (not wrong, necessarily).
so let it be written... so let it be done.
Ian, by all means, I would encourage you to bring to the table anything you find questionable in my past comments. I have reread them and haven't found anything particularly controversial.
I think your question regarding the "solid finances" of general authorities and mission presidents would best be answered by turning the question back to you: what conclusions do you draw from the financial histories of the general authorities?
Since I think you believe that I'm simply giving an observation or personal opinion, let me share a very recent example. In Stake Priesthood meeting this past Sunday, my stake president announced that he'd been called as a mission president in southern Italy. He explained how he'd been interviewed by both Elder Nelson and President Monson. During those interviews, one of the questions he was asked was regarding his financial status--was he in a financial position to be able to leave behind his occupation for these years? He replied that gratefully, he was.
I understand your point with Matthew 6. Our focus should be on the kingdom of heaven, that's obvious. But do you really think that the Savior was speaking literally to each one of us when he said, "Take therefore no thought for the morrow"? I think the immediate audience in that chapter is worth considering. However, I do see your point, but I think you might be carrying it a bit far.
I didn't understand your BYU football team comment. I'm interested in your elaboration on that comment when you get a chance.
Of course the Lord does not need our money. Yet, nevertheless, the facilities of the church are still funded with such money. Does it have to be? No. Is it? Yes.
I guess I'll just leave a few words in closing:
"Don't do anything which would disqualify you from the opportunity of gaining an education. It is a very important part of your religion. Education is the key which unlocks the door of opportunity. If you gain that key, the world will bless you and compensate you according to what it considers to be your worth" (Gordon B. Hinckley, "Words of the Living Prophet," Liahona, Nov. 1999, 12).
President Brigham Young:
"When this people are prepared to properly use the riches of this world for the building up of the Kingdom of God, He is ready and willing to bestow them upon us. I like to see men get rich by their industry, prudence, management and economy, and then devote it to the building up of the Kingdom of God upon the earth."
See also Alma 1:29-31.
I think your question regarding the "solid finances" of general authorities and mission presidents would best be answered by turning the question back to you: what conclusions do you draw from the financial histories of the general authorities?
I never suggested that such a person should turn down a calling. And I never said that they wouldn't get a calling. I simply believe that it's no coincidence that such time-consuming commitments (as in the case of these examples) often gravitate toward those who have been prepared, and financial preparation is no trivial detail.Ian: what if someone gets called to be a mission president or general authority, but doesn't have "relatively solid finances?" should they turn downt the calling, because they wouldn't be able to live comfortably? or are you saying that such a person wouldn't get the call in the first place?
Since I think you believe that I'm simply giving an observation or personal opinion, let me share a very recent example. In Stake Priesthood meeting this past Sunday, my stake president announced that he'd been called as a mission president in southern Italy. He explained how he'd been interviewed by both Elder Nelson and President Monson. During those interviews, one of the questions he was asked was regarding his financial status--was he in a financial position to be able to leave behind his occupation for these years? He replied that gratefully, he was.
I understand your point with Matthew 6. Our focus should be on the kingdom of heaven, that's obvious. But do you really think that the Savior was speaking literally to each one of us when he said, "Take therefore no thought for the morrow"? I think the immediate audience in that chapter is worth considering. However, I do see your point, but I think you might be carrying it a bit far.
I didn't understand your BYU football team comment. I'm interested in your elaboration on that comment when you get a chance.
Of course the Lord does not need our money. Yet, nevertheless, the facilities of the church are still funded with such money. Does it have to be? No. Is it? Yes.
I alluded to something Elder Eyring said to my sister. Reread my comment and see that it's not namedropping when I suggest going straight to the source for the first-hand account. Ask my sister Jenny for details if you'd like. Her contact info is available upon request.you alluded to something elder eyring said, but you didn't say what it was (that's just namedropping).
I guess I'll just leave a few words in closing:
"Don't do anything which would disqualify you from the opportunity of gaining an education. It is a very important part of your religion. Education is the key which unlocks the door of opportunity. If you gain that key, the world will bless you and compensate you according to what it considers to be your worth" (Gordon B. Hinckley, "Words of the Living Prophet," Liahona, Nov. 1999, 12).
President Brigham Young:
"When this people are prepared to properly use the riches of this world for the building up of the Kingdom of God, He is ready and willing to bestow them upon us. I like to see men get rich by their industry, prudence, management and economy, and then devote it to the building up of the Kingdom of God upon the earth."
See also Alma 1:29-31.
Last edited by Steve on Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world. ~George MacDonald
well steve the reason i asked about your "solid finances of general authorities/mission presidents" comment was that i really didn't understand what point you were trying to make. you admitted that obviously everyone should have the Lord's work as a first priority. but then you said to consider the finances of general authorities/mission presidents. please explain, what point are you making? i really don't understand. that's why i asked. for that matter i don't really know the financial histories of the general authorities (although i do know that not all of them are "well off.")
i don't think you're wrong in what you're saying. i guess the reason i questioned some of your comments is because they didn't come with the caveat that is always brought up in the scriptures, which is to not seek after riches. so often, the things that you mention (such as the financial histories of general authorities, the need to fund church facilities, etc.) are used as justification for seeking after wealth. i have no problem with wealth per se (after all, we are all wealthy, relatively speaking), and i know money can and should be used for good, but that doesn't mean we should seek after it.
consider this quote from brigham young (he's always great for quotes, isn't he?):
i don't think you're wrong in what you're saying. i guess the reason i questioned some of your comments is because they didn't come with the caveat that is always brought up in the scriptures, which is to not seek after riches. so often, the things that you mention (such as the financial histories of general authorities, the need to fund church facilities, etc.) are used as justification for seeking after wealth. i have no problem with wealth per se (after all, we are all wealthy, relatively speaking), and i know money can and should be used for good, but that doesn't mean we should seek after it.
consider this quote from brigham young (he's always great for quotes, isn't he?):
Never pray for riches; do not entertain such a foolish thought. In my deep poverty, when I knew not where I could procure the next morsel of food for myself and family, I have prayed God to open the way that I might get something to keep myself and family from dying. Those who do more than this are off, more or less, from the track that leads to life eternal.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
Steve: "I simply believe that it's no coincidence that such time-consuming commitments (as in the case of these examples) often gravitate toward those who have been prepared, and financial preparation is no trivial detail."Ian: well steve the reason i asked about your "solid finances of general authorities/mission presidents" comment was that i really didn't understand what point you were trying to make.
Click here for biographies. Can you find one who was in desperate financial need when they were called as a full-time general authority?Ian: for that matter i don't really know the financial histories of the general authorities
Ian: i guess the reason i questioned some of your comments is because they didn't come with the caveat that is always brought up in the scriptures, which is to not seek after riches.
My view on riches is Jacob 2:18-19. Not everyone can handle wealth. I think it's a dangerous blessing, and by that I mean "where much is given, much is required." As quotes concerning camels will illustrate, wealth can make salvation a more difficult task. However, in the right hands, wealth can be an enormous blessing to God's children. My initial point (and still the principal point I am discussing) is that wealth can indeed be a blessing. The biggest problem arises in how we treat that blessing. See Helaman 6:17 for more on this point.Ian: "you admitted that obviously everyone should have the Lord's work as a first priority."
Your Brigham Young quote goes along with what's been said. Brigham Young ecouraged men to get rich (when they were prepared to properly use those riches), but not to make that the focus of their prayers. Thanks for the quote.
I'd love to hear your opinion on the other quotes and scriptures posted, and again, on your BYU comment. Thanks for the discussion.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world. ~George MacDonald
i thought that brigham young made it pretty clear that we shouldn't pray for riches. that's more than just saying that riches shouldn't be the "focus" of our prayers. he said that we shouldn't pray for them at all. and yet you seem to say that we should try to get rich? even though we shouldn't pray for riches? i'm confused.
i just think you might have things backwards. we shouldn't say "i'm going to try to get rich, so that i can do good stuff for others." we should try to live Christlike lives, and then wealth might come to us if we want it for doing good (Jacob 2:18-19, nov 1991 new era). the scriptures teach that we should set our hearts on the things of God rather than on worldly things, not just that we should set our hearts on the things of God more than on worldy things. we can't seek after both things; it's one or the other.
i'm not convinced, by the way, that getting rich will necessarily free up more time to do the Lord's work. it might be just the opposite. putting in the hours to get all that money usually means less time for our family and callings. brigham young himself gave away most of his possessions and reduced his business when he gained a testimony of the gospel.
your gordon b. hinkley quote encourages us to seek after an education, but he doesn't encourage us to seek after riches. your brigham young quote encourages us to use our wealth for building up the kingdom, but it doesn't encourage us to seek after riches either. he said that he likes to see men get rich by honests (as opposed to dishonest) means, if they subsequently use it for good; but i don't read that as encouragement to try to get rich.
i just don't know that we are ever justified in seeking after earthly riches. of course earning money isn't a bad thing, and we should try to live comfortably and get an education and get a good job, etc. but i don't know about trying to get rich. we are taught to be content with whatever we have.
my byu football comment was sarcastic, of course. and i already read your short explanation of the "solid finances of general authorities" comment, but i didn't understand it (sorry). it would be helpful if you elaborated on that. i just don't get how that applies to us.
i should say that i'm not trying to argue just to argue, and i could be wrong, of course. i'm just trying to flesh out my understanding of this stuff. i'm glad steve is willing to discuss this because this forum got a little dull the past few weeks, frankly.
i just think you might have things backwards. we shouldn't say "i'm going to try to get rich, so that i can do good stuff for others." we should try to live Christlike lives, and then wealth might come to us if we want it for doing good (Jacob 2:18-19, nov 1991 new era). the scriptures teach that we should set our hearts on the things of God rather than on worldly things, not just that we should set our hearts on the things of God more than on worldy things. we can't seek after both things; it's one or the other.
i'm not convinced, by the way, that getting rich will necessarily free up more time to do the Lord's work. it might be just the opposite. putting in the hours to get all that money usually means less time for our family and callings. brigham young himself gave away most of his possessions and reduced his business when he gained a testimony of the gospel.
your gordon b. hinkley quote encourages us to seek after an education, but he doesn't encourage us to seek after riches. your brigham young quote encourages us to use our wealth for building up the kingdom, but it doesn't encourage us to seek after riches either. he said that he likes to see men get rich by honests (as opposed to dishonest) means, if they subsequently use it for good; but i don't read that as encouragement to try to get rich.
i just don't know that we are ever justified in seeking after earthly riches. of course earning money isn't a bad thing, and we should try to live comfortably and get an education and get a good job, etc. but i don't know about trying to get rich. we are taught to be content with whatever we have.
my byu football comment was sarcastic, of course. and i already read your short explanation of the "solid finances of general authorities" comment, but i didn't understand it (sorry). it would be helpful if you elaborated on that. i just don't get how that applies to us.
i should say that i'm not trying to argue just to argue, and i could be wrong, of course. i'm just trying to flesh out my understanding of this stuff. i'm glad steve is willing to discuss this because this forum got a little dull the past few weeks, frankly.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
Haha, sorry. I can see that this wasn't the best phrasing. What I meant was that it shouldn't be the focus of our prayers (with emphasis on the prayers). But of course, it shouldn't be the focus at all. In other words, like Brigham Young said, we shouldn't be praying for riches.Ian: i thought that brigham young made it pretty clear that we shouldn't pray for riches. that's more than just saying that riches shouldn't be the "focus" of our prayers.
First of all, those are two separate things. Trying to get rich and praying for riches. Second, no, I never said that we should try to get rich. Though we can. I can go into a profession where I know that I will be paid well. In essence, I'm trying (studying/working) to get rich. Should we? Not necessarily.and yet you seem to say that we should try to get rich? even though we shouldn't pray for riches? i'm confused.
Also, regarding Jacob 2:18-19, read it again. It says BEFORE you seek for riches. It doesn't say INSTEAD OF seeking for riches. Then it continues: "And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good..." Doesn't sound like Jacob agrees with your statement that "we shouldn't say 'i'm going to try to get rich, so that i can do good stuff for others.'"
I agree that the scriptures tell us where to set our hearts. Like you said, we should set our hearts on things of God rather than on worldly things. I would argue that it is possible to work toward obtaining the means to help others, and in this sense, I would certainly argue that you would be setting your hearts on things of God. If your heart is with your money and possessions, that is one thing. If your heart is with the good you can do with money, that is another.
Completely agree. Like my first comment in the present discussion explains, I think Satan can use money to destroy us. Men staying later hours at work thinking they are benefiting their families, women getting jobs outside of the home to afford a nicer car, etc. etc. Again, it's Satan's counterfeit principle at work that I discussed earlier. I just know that having sufficient wealth can make service easier if it gives us more time, etc. Like I said, it's a question of logistics if nothing else.i'm not convinced, by the way, that getting rich will necessarily free up more time to do the Lord's work. it might be just the opposite.
The Gordon B. Hinckley quote encourages us to seek education which he claims will bless us with the compensation that we're worth (in terms of worldly compensation). The implications of this in the context of this discussion are that we should not shy away from righteous means of obtaining an appropriate compensation as a blessing for our efforts.
The Brigham Young quote that I shared may not suggest that we should seek riches, but it certainly does not discourage people from seeking riches, just as Jacob didn't. It's all about purpose/motive and where our heart is set.
This would better be addressed in a discussion on covetousness. Being content with what one has does not mean ceasing to exert one's effort toward an appropriate goal. If I am living a balanced life where I am fulfilling my role as a husband, parent, and member of the church, and suddenly I am offered a promotion at work, it is certainly not wickedness to apply for the position (even though you know its only real benefit may be more money). If you believe that the extra funds might be too great a temptation, though, and that you would use them selfishly, then perhaps you'd best pass on the opportunity. Otherwise, there is much good that comes in getting such resources into the hands of one who will use them with a heart set on things of God.i just don't know that we are ever justified in seeking after earthly riches. ...we are taught to be content with whatever we have.
I still don't get the BYU football comment, but fair enough.
As for the "solid finances of general authorities" issue...hehe, it is simply a response to your original question last Friday as to whether or not surplus wealth is, or can be, a blessing. I am demonstrating that surplus wealth can help us so finances need not hinder us if the opportunity arose to serve the Lord in a full-time calling. If I can live a righteous life, and the Lord blesses me with additional funds, I can use those funds to place me in a better position to serve Him. So that we don't go in circles, since your previous responses have already indicated your probable reaction to that statement, let me again state the obvious: of course people can be called as general authorities even if they don't have the finances to support themselves without working (that's another blessing of having those around who can help).
I'm just saying that wealth can be a significant blessing, even in a spiritual sense. Those who do not see it as a blessing would do well to avoid it. Those whose hearts are set on it would be better off avoiding it as well.
Side-note: Yeah, these forums ain't what they used to be. Should I introduce a new hot topic? haha
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world. ~George MacDonald
sorry but you're confusing me steve. did brigham young encourage us to try to get rich, or not? and did jacob encourage us to seek after riches, or not? i guess you're saying that it all depends on where our heart is, or whether we think we're able to handle wealth, or something like that. and it's true that the scriptures teach us: "do not set your heart on riches." but that doesn't mean that if i set my heart on the things of God, i'll be able to seek after riches at the same time. you can't have it both ways. i think that's what the Lord means when he says "ye cannot serve God and mammon."
it's true that your quotes from jacob and brigham young don't seem to discourage us from seeking riches. but i don't know that it's wise to take two little quotes and base our financial philosphy around them. there are many scriptures that clearly discourage us from trying to get rich:
"Seek not for riches but for wisdom, and behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich." (d&c 6:7, d&c 11:7)
"And verily I say unto thee that thou shalt lay aside the things of this world, and seek for the things of a better." (d&c 25:10)
"Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches." (psalms 73:12)
"There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches." (proverbs 13:7)
"A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent." (proverbs 28:20)
"The sleep of a labouring man is sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep." (ecclesiastes 5:12)
"And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!" (mark 10:23)
"For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich." (2 corinthians 8:9)
"5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition." (1 timothy 6)
"Seek not after riches nor the vain things of this world; for behold, you cannot carry them with you." (alma 39:14)
"Now the cause of this iniquity of the people was this—Satan had great power, unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity, and to the puffing them up with pride, tempting them to seek for power, and authority, and riches, and the vain things of the world." (3 nephi 6:15)
"But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God." (jacob 2:18 (i don't read this as a justification for seeking riches, by the way, because when will we ever stop seeking for the kingdom of God?))
many people use jacob 2:19 as justification for seeking after money. but that scripture is clearly talking about obtaining riches with the express intent to take care of the poor. it is quite rare for someone to seek after riches with that sole intent. if i accumulate riches, without giving all my surplus to the poor, then i probably can't use jacob 2:19 as my excuse (even if i make a few sizeable donations to byu or whatever).
i agree that money and earthly riches aren't bad per se. and the scriptures contain examples of good people who obtained riches. but there are many more scriptures warning us of the danger of wealth, and telling us not to seek after riches. i don't know of any scriptures that say it's ok to seek after riches, just because you think you'll know how to use them properly. only the Lord can decide if we are prepared to handle wealth, and only he can decide if we will get it (though he will allow wicked people to get rich, of course, just like he will allow righteous people to be poor).
it's true that your quotes from jacob and brigham young don't seem to discourage us from seeking riches. but i don't know that it's wise to take two little quotes and base our financial philosphy around them. there are many scriptures that clearly discourage us from trying to get rich:
"Seek not for riches but for wisdom, and behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich." (d&c 6:7, d&c 11:7)
"And verily I say unto thee that thou shalt lay aside the things of this world, and seek for the things of a better." (d&c 25:10)
"Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches." (psalms 73:12)
"There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches." (proverbs 13:7)
"A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent." (proverbs 28:20)
"The sleep of a labouring man is sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep." (ecclesiastes 5:12)
"And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!" (mark 10:23)
"For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich." (2 corinthians 8:9)
"5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition." (1 timothy 6)
"Seek not after riches nor the vain things of this world; for behold, you cannot carry them with you." (alma 39:14)
"Now the cause of this iniquity of the people was this—Satan had great power, unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity, and to the puffing them up with pride, tempting them to seek for power, and authority, and riches, and the vain things of the world." (3 nephi 6:15)
"But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God." (jacob 2:18 (i don't read this as a justification for seeking riches, by the way, because when will we ever stop seeking for the kingdom of God?))
many people use jacob 2:19 as justification for seeking after money. but that scripture is clearly talking about obtaining riches with the express intent to take care of the poor. it is quite rare for someone to seek after riches with that sole intent. if i accumulate riches, without giving all my surplus to the poor, then i probably can't use jacob 2:19 as my excuse (even if i make a few sizeable donations to byu or whatever).
i agree that money and earthly riches aren't bad per se. and the scriptures contain examples of good people who obtained riches. but there are many more scriptures warning us of the danger of wealth, and telling us not to seek after riches. i don't know of any scriptures that say it's ok to seek after riches, just because you think you'll know how to use them properly. only the Lord can decide if we are prepared to handle wealth, and only he can decide if we will get it (though he will allow wicked people to get rich, of course, just like he will allow righteous people to be poor).
so let it be written... so let it be done.
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