Our Children's Education

[Steve]

No, no, I'm thinking you both misunderstand me then. I really am curious if anyone has access to some research on the subject. As I stated in my initial post on the subject, "I'm not convinced dual immersion is necessary and I've told Lily that I'm against it for the time being." I thought I was clear. I'm not a dual-immersion advocate.

And as I've also stated, "I believe that the Holy Ghost will guide us in this endeavor, as Heavenly Father knows our children better than we do." I believe that mothers can make the best decision regarding their children's education as they study it out and then seek the Lord's inspiration. You made a decision for your children and I'm certain you did what you thought was best.

My initial impressions are also that the dual-immersion program are unnecessary and perhaps even a hindrance to a child. I am trying to study it out, though, both for my children's benefit and for my career.

[James]

personal observation relates to empiricism which relates, like science, to the philosophy of positivism. The relevance of knowledge obtained by science and empirical observation is limited by its reliance on the philosophy of positivism. This limitation presents us with three options. First option: we may neglect empiricism and rely on other philosophies. Second option, we can look at more and more empirical research, rather than just one experience (or seven). Third option: we may utilize many different ways of looking at the world maybe even combining options one and two.

I actually presented a news article in this post which reported on some recent research (Mom said that she did not necessarily agree with the conclusions and that was all anyone said about it).
Perhaps if an infant is exposed to multiple languages as the ones in the study were, they will be more prepared to not only master English (through a lifetime of study) but to also succeed in learning other languages.
The article claims that if parents do not expose children to multiple languages at early ages, those children's ability to learn languages in the future may be inhibited.
More research hopefully will follow.

[margaret]

There are more elements to a culture than just the language. Helping a young child's mind become more flexible is unrelated to the idea of a mixed-cultural marriage. Mom was an actual part of the Peruvian/Bolivian culture before literally moving to America, where she then had to learn to grow and live in America {a very different culture, indeed}. Learning English was only one of many factors in her adaption. Also, Ian- I agree that we as Huntington children ought to take heed to the wise, and idealistic views of our excellent parents. I think it really cool that you carry many traditions Mom and Dad have set.
I also think that as I become a parent, i too, can create my own ideals via the experiences i have in my life. Mom has had an intense experience with this topic, and teaches many things based off of her personal experiences, whether it relates to a more universal crowd, or not. I am very similar, though at times i need to be careful not to think that my subjectivity will be sufficient enough for someone who may want more objectivity.

[margaret]

Also, Steve- I didn't find your comment about me offensive in the least bit. Though i should clarify that i choose to write cryptically not because it is convenient or quick or because i am using technology, but because it is a fun hobby for my mind! There are some who can make meaning out of the things i say quite quickly, and they be none smarter than you. Yew nao wat ayem een??????? Yew nis smarnt, yew nis smarnt, Schtufteve!

[margaret]

And no, there is no set rules to the ways i write in these circumstances. It changes always it is. I also do the ones in handwriting too. And in Speak. I WISH i was better a MadGab....but i not too good.

[margaret]

I LOOOOOOOVEEEEE YOU ONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ian]

One of the points that Ian is making is to not doubt this mother's knowledge on dual immersion education. You don't have to agree with it. But from personal observation and hence knowledge I have come to the conclusion that dual immersion programs at an early age can interfere with native language acquisition.

mom, i didn't have this in mind, actually. i believe the stripling warriors are a case study (for lack of a better term) on the importance of emotional development (among other things). i think we should consider the emotional effects of dual immersion education on a child. however, let me say that i believe mom has far more expertise in this topic than any of us. i also appreciate mom's courage to formulate and express an actual opinion. having researched the topic myself, and also trusting mom's judgment, i can say that i agree with mom on this.

steve, i understand that you are asking for scientific research. i've studied some scientific research supporting both sides of this issue. frankly, i don't think it's very helpful, for reasons i'll try to explain. i find it much more helpful to study actual children, to study the scriptures, to talk with my parents, and to read books written by people who spend time with children, at an individual level. i try to think about what it's like to be a child. i think about my own childhood, and what motivates me to learn. i think about what makes me feel secure. each child is an individual person, and i try to know and understand my children as well as i can (without typing). at the same time, we all have basic needs. we all need to feel secure. our relationship with God is essential for this. our family is essential for this. childhood is also essential. we need to be children during our childhood years. many parents want to rush their children past childhood. i believe dual immersion is one way of doing this. i believe foreign language training is an important part of a well-rounded education. i also believe calculus is an important part of a well-rounded education. however, these subjects are best studied at an older age. it's hard to sit in a classroom while a teacher is speaking a foreign language, be it chinese or calculus. people are better equipped to handle these subjects when they are older and more mature. milk before meat.

"dual-immersion" education, as presently defined, is impossible. can a child really be immersed in two languages at the same time? not fully, and not without running the risk of causing considerable stress and confusion. the potential cost does not outweigh the potential benefit, in my opinion. and yes, i am aware of the prevailing modern-day scientific theories.

james, i read the new york times article, thanks for posting. i don't think neurological research such as this is very helpful. these researchers study electrical brain responses. any conclusion drawn from this research, as it relates to the long-term development of a child, is purely speculative. neuroscience is interesting, but it hasn't really taught us much about child development. neuroscientists have no idea how to improve learning. they don't know how language is implemented in the brain. they don't know what intelligence is. they simply don't know enough about the brain to provide any real, helpful guidance to parents. in the given study, the researchers studied electrical brain responses at 6 months, then at 12 months. what about at 24 months? what about at 24 years? one of the researchers noted that "overwhelmingly, children who are bilingual from early on have precocious development of executive function." is this a good thing? i'm not so sure. i certainly wouldn't rely on this research to make any parental decisions.

most published research is unreliable. quote me: most published research is unreliable. scientists and experts are often biased, dishonest or incompetent. most findings published in top medical journals end up being contradicted. don't get me wrong, i love science and i study science. but i take scientific research articles with a giant grain of salt. i would put them close to the bottom of the list of things to study and consider when making a decision about my child's education.

margaret, you would do well to trust in your mom's wisdom and intuition. her opinion is not based on mere subjectivity, as you call it. you talk about creating your own ideals. you can save yourself a lot of time and trouble by just trusting mom.

[margaret]

Everyone's opinion on this thread is speculative.

And, Ian, it is a shame you are measuring on your ruler with no centimeters my respect for mom and dad in front of everyone by urging me to take heed to their words and counsels. But i know where you're coming from, so i'm not going to take offense to your words.
I create my own ideals BECAUSE of Mom and Dad. It is not a rebellious act {though i know you very much disagree}. Ian, it is all well, but you do not see how many labyrinthine levels of respect Mom and Dad deserve. Each of the siblings has in them personal, internalized lessons and character traits they have learned/taken from the parents. It would be weak of you to think that what you've taken from mom and dad are the only things to take from them. They are more complex then that, and that's why they stand as one of the most unique pairing in the world. You don't find a lot of people like them. Period.

[Ian]

some sources of information are more helpful and reliable than others. i would put scientific research on the low end of the scale, as it pertains to parenting.

[margaret]

I'd put watching too much TV and violence below science, as far as parenting goes. But i agree with the bulk of that idea.

[Angela]

I have no plans to ever use a "dual-immersion" language program with my children. I think it does more harm than good. I've taught some kids enrolled in this program and I don't believe that it's helped their english or taught them the second language they were immersed in.

[Tuly]

First of all I want to thank all of you who have participated in this thread. Dual immersion will get more popular with time...actually it is popular right now. It is a topic that all of you will have to decide for all your children. Since all of you studied some foreign language in high school or even junior high. Most of you must realize by now that we are discussing about an "elective" subject in school. Having also studied French in junior high, high school and college you must know that I love learning different languages.
Second of all your parents are far less than perfect. Worked very hard to understand about the learning process for each of you. We read a lot of parenting books and education books. When there was conflict with those secular books and the scriptures we opted for the scriptures and of course prayer and fasting. I can not begin to tell you how many times we prayed to do what was educationally best for each of you individually. You all learned very differently. Yes, there were some things in common but we tried not to put you all in the same mold...that was hard to do. Dad and I have always felt that we have raised seven extra ordinary children. We are all still learning about the process of learning. There is so much to learn about learning. I'm hoping this thread will be expand our understanding of what is valuable and best for your children. I know it is an individual choice, and I will respect your choices. Some of us have studied these learning options for over 35 years.
I hope you find this helpful. I'm still curious to hear all of your opinions about dual immersion education, specifically for elementary age children.

[Ian]

sorry if this is only tangentially related, but in a strange way, this discussion relates to john stuart mill (19th century british philosopher).

firstly, mom's last comment about sharing opinions reminds me of a favorite quote from mill's "on liberty":

If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind. Were an opinion a personal possession of no value except to the owner; if to be obstructed in the enjoyment of it were simply a private injury, it would make some difference whether the injury was inflicted only on a few persons or on many. But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.

secondly, mill was a very precocious child. he was taught greek at the age of three. he was taught latin at the age of eight. by age ten he was reading greek. at the age of fourteen he stayed a year in france. all the while he was taught a great deal of history, math and science.

at the age of twenty, mill suffered a nervous breakdown. in his autobiography he wrote that this was caused by the great physical and mental strain of his studies which had affected his emotional development as a child. case in point!

thirdly, mill had a friendship with auguste comte, the founder of the philosophy of positivism, which was mentioned by james a few comments ago. weird, huh?

[margaret]

Woah, Ian, that's CRAAAAAAZZZYYY! What silly parents of his...not knowing what his limitations were. I agree with Mom that prayer is key in parenting. Intuition also helps.

[Steve]

As I was thinking about the Prop 8 debate, my thoughts returned to this thread and Ian's comments regarding the corruption of language and his example of the Mulekites as reported in the book of Omni. Perhaps there is more to this "language corruption" concern than I initially acknowledged. I tip my hat to you, Ian.

Language is at the heart of the Prop 8 debate—there is an effort to create confusion over definitions. This isn't about defining the rights and privileges of individuals, but is a debate over an attempt to redefine one of the most important words in human language. Language is becoming increasingly ambiguous and what was once capable of communicating black and white is now more susceptible to gray interpretation. The basic identities of clear and solid concepts are being clouded for future generations.

The debate over the word "marriage" in the present day is perplexing, even from a "logical" standpoint. We understand that marriage refers to the formal union between a man and a woman. Now, as a matter of "fairness" and "tolerance", we are to alter the definition to be more inclusive (and less precisely defined). Moving along that path, how are we to be certain what anything means? Take, for example, the word "green" and its associated meaning. What if I felt that others' use of green wasn't tolerant enough? Perhaps I could argue that green shouldn't just be used to describe the union of "blue" and "yellow" but also the union between "navy blue" and "royal blue".

Clearly, the corruption of language is a method being used by the adversary to attempt to muddle clear and simple matters. We need to be careful with plain and precious truths and defend efforts to preserve them and the language used to describe them.