The Family: A Proclamation to the World

[micah]

Also, same-sex couples CANNOT have a normal church experience any more than alcoholics, drug users, apostates, or any other fringe group, because they are LIVING AGAINST THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. That is not the church's fault. It is their's for living contrary to what God commands. All the blessings of the Church would be theirs IF they would repent and follow the Prophet. Same-sex marriage will NEVER be possible in the Lord's Church. This matter is simply sifting the wheat from the tares. Which are we?

Uh... There are actually a lot of alcoholics and drug users who have a normal church experience. The church works tirelessly to help people with addiction problems. In fact, you might even have alcoholics and drug addicts in your ward! Their children can be blessed and can be baptized.

Anyway, I think I see where this policy is coming from (if it even is a final policy, as Ian points out). I still see so many situations where this will only hurt children and youth and deprive them of blessings through no fault of their own.

[Bryn]

What is a normal church experience?

[Bryn]

Sorry, that was a rhetorical question.

[micah]

Furthermore, a name and a blessing is typically performed for children who parents are members of the church.

“Every member of the church of Christ having children is to bring them unto the elders before the church, who are to lay their hands upon them in the name of Jesus Christ, and bless them in his name” D&C 20:70.

If a couple is considered apostate, or simply not a member, then their children do not receive this ordinance.

This may be true, but I have seen numerous examples of children, whose parents are not active members, being blessed by grandparents or other family members. There are many people who are not active, but that do want to give their children a better life and have them go to church.

However, it cannot be denied that there are consequences to our decisions, and what is tragic about this is our children who are directly affected by them. We sometime lose track of where personal accountability comes into play. I often have to do better with this. Yes, the children will be affected by their parents decisions, and we can try to blame something; but ultimately, it is the parent who are responsible. I wish there were a way to express this without seeming calloused, but there is simply no way around it.

It is true that the parents are considered to be sinning by our doctrine. But this does not mean that the parents are responsible for the church not letting their children be baptized, when the church openly allows children of all other egregious sinners be baptized. The church has 100% responsibility for enacting policies that disenfranchise people.

The church could and has let children of gay parents be baptized. This would not go against any doctrinal principle that I am aware of (please correct me if I am wrong). This policy is arbitrary--I cannot claim to understand fully the reasons for it. And when it comes to arbitrary policies, the fact that there are consequences does not make the consequences just or right.

[micah]

What is a normal church experience?

Rhetorical or not, that is a good question. I think what I mean by normal is to feel accepted by the ward as a part of the ward. Raise a family where, at age 8, your children can be baptized, at age 12, the boys get the priesthood. Your children have the gift of the Holy Ghost. Your kids can give talks and say prayers.

It is interesting because when we lived in Seattle there was a big push in the stake to reach out to gay and lesbian individuals. Invite them to church. Invite their families to church. Make sure they feel loved, as Christ loves them. And this was whether they were "living the lifestyle" or not. Our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters need Christ just as much as you and me. Their children need baptism just as much as yours and mine. They are children of God, just like you and me. We are all sinners. The church has made some progress in being more loving and inviting toward gay and lesbian people. This policy would be a huge step backwards.

I just have a hard time reconciling the actions of Christ with actions like this. Christ ministered to the prostitutes, the adulterers, the sinners. He invited the children to come unto him--he didn't ask if their parents were gay or not.

[Ian]

i'm not sure how to reconcile your opinion with this:

I want to say to you that there never was a time since the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, when a man led the Church, not for one moment. It was not so in the days of Joseph; it was not so in the days of Brigham Young; it has not been so since; it never will be so. The direction of this work among the people of the world will never be left to men. It is God’s work.

President Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 76

[John]

Zion's camp.

[Ian]

Potential enemies notwithstanding, quarreling and contention within the camp became its most vexing problem. Several men feared possible dangers, some complained about changes in their life-style, and a few questioned the decisions of their leaders. For forty-five days they marched together, and the inevitable personality clashes were exacerbated by the harsh conditions they encountered. Grumblers often blamed Joseph Smith for their discomfort.

Chapter Twelve: Zion's Camp, Church History In The Fulness Of Times Student Manual, (2003), 141–152

[John]

Is it reasonable to propose that substance abuse addictions, though dire and sad and damaging to children, do not teach children that drug and alcohol abuse are good. Whereas, same-gender "parents" are inclined to defend their choices as "right" and foist these sentiments on children under their care. But this is a false narrative. And until a child can be freed from this false and foundationally wrong doctrine, he should also be kept free of the condemnation that its perpetuation would bring upon him. Let that accountability rest where it belongs.

[John]

micah wrote:

he didn't ask if their parents were gay or not.

If we accept that Christ still leads the church through his duly ordained prophets, whom he fully endorses, apparently He now is asking. But no one has said anything about the church not "ministering" to anyone. After all prophets in our day are known to have visited and "ministered" to murderers, apostates, adulterers, and thieves in prisons and other places. And I don't see that anyone is proposing that the children in these circumstances are not to be ministered to.

[Bryn]

I am wary of saying the church has 100% responsibility for enacting policies that disenfranchise people, because people are going to be disenfranchised of any policy that is declared. People of all ages have been disenfranchised from the instructions given from prophets/the Lord.

Christ did indeed minister to prostitutes, adulterers, and sinners. Among other things, he invited them to stop being prostitutes, adulterers, and sinners. That I am aware of, no one has said we must stop ministering to gay couples and their kids. If anything, this policy would imply a greater effort to minister to people whose views and practices on marriage differ from ours.

There have always been prerequisites to baptism, even limitations. All will have the chance to accept the gospel through baptism. The kids we are talking about don't even have to wait for vicarious baptism. They just have to wait until they are 18. I guess this seems unfair because we are accustomed to baptizing people whenever they want. They are being denied a normal Mormon experience. I am pretty sure I am not living a normal Mormon experience.

To be baptized requires a lot of commitment, as we all know. To follow the Savior, we must be willing to put put the Lord ahead of even our families. Eventually, we all have to decide if we will or will not follow the Lord. Is it fair to ask a 9 year old to choose between his parents and baptism (mind, in reality, he can choose to follow the Lord and love his parents, but that can be very difficult for a child to understand and unfair to impose on him). I am not saying I totally understand the issue and all of its implications (I'm pretty sure there are very few who do), but there are some very good arguments in favor of the policy, and they are not nearly as cruel as one might suppose.

[Bryn]

Sorry, my post was redundant. By the way, I appreciate Micah posting his concerns.

[Edward]

This policy is arbitrary--I cannot claim to understand fully the reasons for it. And when it comes to arbitrary policies, the fact that there are consequences does not make the consequences just or right.

This is one perilous road of thought if you ask me. You presume to call counsel from the General Authorities arbitrary? Sorry, but that is shocking to me. Are you, then, better informed on these matters than they? Are you saying you know better? That your idea of what is just or right is better than theirs? I am asking this seriously. I want to know why your perception of the issue should be accepted over the leaders of the Church who seem to want us to move in this direction. They speak for the Lord, and He is NEVER arbitrary. Do you think then that they don't speak for Him? Is that what the real issue is?

[Steve]

Micah, I'm sure it's your love for others that causes you to grieve because of these instructions. Perhaps you feel like Amulek in the city of Ammonihah as you mourn for the innocent who suffer for the choices of wicked men:

And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames (Alma 14:10).

We know that the prophet Alma responded that it was done according to the Lord's will, and that they would do nothing to stop it. These moments are difficult to imagine as we contrast the evil and wickedness of men with the infinite love of the Savior. Why would the Lord allow innocent women and children to suffer? It doesn't make sense.

Fortunately, the scriptures provide clear, concise instructions in moments like these.

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding (Proverbs 3:5).

This is an extremely plain and precious reminder for us. On top of that, we are even told ahead of time what to expect if we set aside our own understanding and place our trust solely in the Lord's wisdom:

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe (1 Timothy 4:10).

I loved the words barely spoken by Elder Neil L. Andersen in October conference. It's as if he were preparing us for this very issue and (I'm sure) many issues to come.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is not something ethereal, floating loosely in the air. Faith does not fall upon us by chance or stay with us by birthright. It is, as the scriptures say, “substance … , the evidence of things not seen.” Faith emits a spiritual light, and that light is discernible. Faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from heaven that comes as we choose to believe and as we seek it and hold on to it. Your faith is either growing stronger or becoming weaker. Faith is a principle of power, important not only in this life but also in our progression beyond the veil. By the grace of Christ, we will one day be saved through faith on His name. The future of your faith is not by chance, but by choice (Elder Neil A. Andersen, Faith Is Not by Chance, but by Choice, October 2015).

I love that line. "The future of your faith is not by chance, but by choice." Today is an opportunity for each of us to choose to exercise our faith. Because of the ways the Lord challenges our mortal understanding, we must rely on faith, especially in this day and age. Prophets are so gentle and encouraging in this regard, though.

...yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words (Alma 32:27).

Brothers and sisters, if you ever think that the gospel isn’t working so well for you, I invite you to step back, look at your life from a higher plane, and simplify your approach to discipleship. Focus on the basic doctrines, principles, and applications of the gospel. I promise that God will guide and bless you on your path to a fulfilling life, and the gospel will definitely work better for you (President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, It Works Wonderfully!, October 2015).

I know that we are in the last days and that we'll encounter many, many more situations where, as Paul declared, the Church and the Lord's commandments will appear "foolish" to the natural men of this world. It is for this reason that we must put off the natural man.

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father (Mosiah 3:19).

Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God (Isaiah 50:10).

It all boils down, yet again, to the simple proverb:

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding (Proverbs 3:5).

[Lily]

I recognize that there is a whole lot of pain that has been stirred all about us and even within us, and that can be hard to reconcile with our own faith. I don't have perfect answers to these sometimes nuanced issues; I don't know what an individual child is capable of in certain situations, nor do I know, as others have acknowledged, what the implications of this issue are. BUT I do know that God loves his children. Every one of us.

1 For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord...
16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?
17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.
(1 Nephi 11:1, 16-17)

I know that there are living prophets today just as there were anciently. I trust them and sustain them. I'm reminded of a quote from a devotional address from Kerry Muhlestein that Steve shared somewhere in this vast forum (here speaking of Joseph Smith's translation of the book of Abraham, but re-reading it I find the whole speech VERY timely):

Nothing I have thought of can account for all the data we have, and in some ways, this is very comforting to me. If we think about it, wouldn’t we be surprised if we could understand exactly how God works when He helps a prophet with an inspired translation? Frankly, given my current limited and finite mind, I would be a bit disappointed if I was capable of understanding just how God works. It would imply that God’s state isn’t really that far advanced from mine. In fact, it would be a fair bit of pride for any of us to think that we can understand all the what’s and why’s of God’s historical dealings with His people, prophets, and scriptures. Let me say again: His thoughts are higher than ours.