Socialism

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Ian
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Socialism

Post by Ian »

what is socialism?

socialism is governmental control of the economy.

is socialism different from communism?

socialism and communism are fundamentally the same. communists establish socialism by revolution. socialists establish socialism by evolution.

is socialism different from the united order of the church?

socialism and the united order are fundamentally different. socialism is implemented by force; the united order is implemented by consecration. socialism is operated by governmental control; the united order is operated by private control. socialism destroys agency; the united order preserves agency.

does socialism exist in the united states?

the united states has adopted much of socialism. the federal government is steadily expanding its control of the economy. many politicians openly support socialist policies.

can a member of the church support socialism?

our duty is to fight against socialism. the fight against socialism is a continuation of the war in heaven. we are fighting to preserve our freedom.
No true Latter-day Saint and no true American can be a socialist or a communist or support programs leading in that direction. These evil philosophies are incompatible with Mormonism, the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference, October 1961
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Steve
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Re: Socialism

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During the first half of the twentieth century we have traveled far into the soul-destroying land of socialism and made strange alliances through which we have become involved in almost continuous hot and cold wars over the whole of the earth. In this retreat from freedom, the voices of protesting citizens have been drowned by raucous shouts of intolerance and abuse from those who led the retreat, and their millions of gullible youth, carrying banners on which are emblazoned such intriguing and misapplied labels as social justice, equality, reform, patriotism, and social welfare are marching merrily to their doom.

Intoxicated with pride in our achievement, enmeshed in the interesting problems still unsolved, we have left unguarded the gate through which are pouring the destructive hordes and forces of a new invasion of barbarism. Hearing the dangers just enumerated, the nation is threatened with the disintegrating influence of moral turpitude; honesty seems to be outmoded, the stability of the family life is threatened, loyalty and patriotism have lost their order, and crime and lawlessness, particularly among young people, are increasing alarmingly.

It is for us to decide how these evil tendencies may be averted. I want to tell you students, who will be leaders in a few years in scholastic fields and business, that unless we do make morality and ethics and spirituality and religion our direct aim, this nation will not be prepared to counteract the evil influence of the teaching behind the Iron Curtain, the leaders of which are purposely, designedly, teaching youth corrupt ideals and principles.

(David O. Mckay, Pathways to Happiness)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: Socialism

Post by Edward »

Cause there ain't no party like a socialist party!

Image

Technically these may be communists, but they both want the same thing. And by same thing I mean PARTY TIMES!!! Then the corruption of ideals and the destruction of human freedoms then PARTY TIMES!
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Re: Socialism

Post by Ian »

economic freedom is the right to own and control private property. “We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.” (Doctrine & Covenants 134:2)

socialism erodes economic freedom by converting private property into public property. “Socialism, reduced to its simplest legal and practical expression, means the complete discarding of the institution of private property by transforming it into public property, and the division of the resultant public income equally and indiscriminately among the entire population.” (George Bernard Shaw, Encyclopædia Britannica, 1926)

economic freedom is foundational to our liberty. private property rights are essential to protect ourselves against tyranny. “The fostering of full economic freedom lies at the base of our liberties. Only in perpetuating economic freedom can our social, political, and religious liberties be preserved.” (David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, Deseret Book 1953, 433)
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Re: Socialism

Post by James »

With "socialism is governmental control of the economy" Ian began this thread.

My uncle George Braddy has lately been repeating frequently and with an optimistic but urgent tone, "we are the government"

One of my former professors, with whom I've kept up with on face book has published on neoliberalism. He is not necessarily a marxist but certainly a leftie. He recently posted this http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... athicsthic
To me the proliferation of millionaire and billionaires and the shrinking middle class are disturbing. I read somewhere that retailers are starting to cater more consumer products to the upper class. There are more high end appliances being developed/advertised and fewer middle grade ones.
I think there is a lot of opinion in President Benson's anti-socialist thought as he presented in that BYU address. One of the things I learned from anthropology, as well as my current studies in architectural history is that there are numerous methods of social organization. I feel that the view of socialism that reduces it to 2 opposites (Joseph Smith in the west, and the devils messenger, Marx, in the old world) misses the reality that many variations of communal living arrangements have been engaged in by numerous groups, in different times and places.
In architectural history many of the more prominent examples come from societies that were highly stratified, using human sacrifice, slave labor, etc. It causes us to see some of the great monolithic "achievements" with a different eye. There are groups of native americans that appeared to have socioeconomic equality.
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Re: Socialism

Post by James »

and of course the socialist party in America has significant history in Utah, of course before President Benson's time.
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Re: Socialism

Post by James »

"There is no doubt that the so-called civil rights movement as it exists today is used as a Communist program for revolution in America"
Benson

I think that, looking back, most Americans would consider the civil rights movement as one of the bright moments in our history.

I am not anti-Benson but I don't jive with his views on politics
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Re: Socialism

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Re: Socialism

Post by Steve »

I read the conference talk from which you pulled President Benson's quote and was grateful for the opportunity. What a remarkable warning to the world. Before I draft my response to explain, though, I'm curious to know your actual political position. What is your personal view, James, regarding everything that has been shared? You do not agree with President Benson's "political views," but then what are your political views?
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: Socialism

Post by Ian »

“we are the government” is a clever slogan. in other words, how can the government be the problem, if we are the government? the government is us, you and me, working together, taking care of each other. this is a crafty way to promote socialism.

we are not the government. we created the government. the government is a group of people who have been hired by us.
The important thing to keep in mind is that the people who have created their government can give to that government only such powers as they, themselves, have in the first place. Obviously, they cannot give that which they do not possess. By deriving its just powers from the governed, government becomes primarily a mechanism for defense against bodily harm, theft, and involuntary servitude. It cannot claim the power to redistribute money or property nor to force reluctant citizens to perform acts of charity against their will. Government is created by the people. No individual possesses the power to take another’s wealth or to force others to do good, so no government has the right to do such things either. The creature cannot exceed the creator.

President Ezra Taft Benson, The Constitution—A Heavenly Banner, September 16, 1986
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Re: Socialism

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From the 1967 General Conference talk by President Ezra Taft Benson, shared by James:
In 1942 Presidents Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., and David O. McKay warned us about the increasing threat to our constitution caused by revolutionists whom the First Presidency said were "using a technique that is as old as the human race—a fervid but false solicitude for the unfortunate over whom they thus gain mastery, and then enslave them. They suit their approaches to the particular group they seek to deceive." (The Improvement Era, May 1942, p. 343.)

That timely counsel about a fervid but false solicitude for the unfortunate" could have saved China and Cuba if enough people knew what the Communist masters of deceit really had in mind when they promised agrarian reform.

Such timely counsel could help save our country from Communism, as the same masters of deceit are showing the same false solicitude for the unfortunate in the name of civil rights.

Now there is nothing wrong with civil rights; it is what's being done in the name of civil rights that is alarming.

There is no doubt that the so-called civil rights movement as it exists today is used as a Communist program for revolution in America just as agrarian reform was used by the Communists to take over China and Cuba.

This shocking statement can be confirmed by an objective study of Communist literature and activities and by knowledgeable Negroes and others who have worked within the Communist movement.

As far back as 1928, the Communists declared that the cultural, economic, and social differences between the races in America could be exploited by them to create the animosity, fear, and hatred between large segments of our people that would be necessary beginning ingredients for their revolution.
...
Total government is the objective of Communism. Without calling it by name, build Communism piece by piece through mass pressures for presidential decrees, court orders, and legislation that appear to be aimed at improving civil rights and other social reforms. If there is social, economic, or educational discrimination, then advocate more government programs and control.

And what if riots come? Then more government housing, government welfare, government job training, and, finally, federal control over police. Thus the essential economic and political structure of Communism can be built entirely "legally" and in apparent response to the wishes of the people who have clamored for some kind of solution to the problems played-up, aggravated, or created outright by Communists for just that purpose. After the machinery of Communism is firmly established, then allow the hidden Communists one by one to make their identities known. Liquidate first the anti-Communists and then the non-Communist sympathizers who are no longer needed in government. The total state mechanism can now openly and "peacefully" be transferred into the hands of Communists. Such is the so-called proletarian revolution. Such has happened in other, once free, countries. It has already started here.
...
It now seems probable that the Communists are determined to use force and violence to its fullest, coupled with a weakening of the economy and military setbacks abroad, in an effort to create as much havoc as possible to weaken America internally and to create the kind of psychological desperation in the minds of all citizens that will lead them to accept blindly the application of legal and political means as the final blow.

Some wonder if it can happen here. Just take a good look at what has been going on around us for the past few years. It is happening here] If it is to be prevented from running the full course, we must stop pretending that it doesn't exist.
...
As President McKay has stated, "The position of this Church on the subject of Communism has never changed. We consider it the greatest satanical threat to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work among men that exists on the face of the earth."

He has also counseled that "next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States]" (The Instructor, Vol. 93 (1956), p. 94.)
The "fervid but false solicitude for the unfortunate" can be seen all around us, primarily in the ranks of the "gullible youth." But we need not be deceived.
Much of what comes from the devil is alluring and enticing. It glitters and is appealing to the sensual parts of our nature. His message sounds so reasonable and easy to justify. His voice is usually smooth and intriguing. If it were harsh or discordant, nobody would listen, nobody would be enticed. Some of Satan’s most appealing messages are: Everyone does it; if it doesn’t hurt anybody else, it’s all right; if you feel there is no harm in it, it’s okay; it’s the “cool” thing to do. Satan is the greatest imitator, the master deceiver, the arch counterfeiter, and the greatest forger ever in the history of the world. He comes into our lives as a thief in the night. His disguise is so perfect that it is hard to recognize him or his methods. He is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
...
All of us want to find out who we really are and what our place is in the world. Some of you young people are trying to find your identity by being different from your parents and families in what they stand for. God made each of us to be different from anyone else in the world, as our DNA and fingerprints prove. You don’t have to work at having a separate identity; you already have one.

Some young people want to rebel against restraints. Some of you think it isn’t “cool” to be obedient to your parents or to follow the counsel of your bishop or quorum president.
...
I also believe that in the future the opposition from Satan will be both more subtle and more open. While in some ways it may be more blatant, it will be masked with greater sophistication and cunning. We will need greater spirituality to perceive all the forms of evil and greater strength to resist it.

(President James E. Faust, The Devil's Throat)
Satan has had great success with this gullible generation. As a consequence, literally hosts of people have been victimized by him and his angels. There is, however, an ample shield against the power of Lucifer and his hosts. This protection lies in the spirit of discernment through the gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift comes undeviatingly by personal revelation to those who strive to obey the commandments of the Lord and to follow the counsel of the living prophets.

This personal revelation will surely come to all whose eyes are single to the glory of God, for it is promised that their bodies will be “filled with light, and there shall be no darkness” in them (D&C 88:67). Satan’s efforts can be thwarted by all who come unto Christ by obedience to the covenants and ordinances of the gospel. The humble followers of the divine Master need not be deceived by the devil if they will be honest and true to their fellow men and women, go to the house of the Lord, receive the sacrament worthily, observe the Sabbath day, pay their tithes and offerings, offer contrite prayers, engage in the Lord’s work, and follow those who preside over them.

(President James E. Faust, The Great Imitator)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: Socialism

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James wrote:from utah's liberal newspaper
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/entertainm ... y.html.csp
Elder Marion G. Romney said in April 1945 General Conference (quoting the First Presidency's conference address in 1942):
Among the Latter-day Saints they speak of their philosophy and their plans under it, as an ushering in of the United Order. Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan. Communism debases the individual and makes him the enslaved tool of the state to whom he must look for sustenance and religion; the United Order exalts the individual, leaves him his property, "according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs" (D&C 51:3), and provides a system by which he helps care for his less fortunate brethren; the United Order leaves every man free to choose his own religion as his conscience directs. Communism destroys man's God-given free agency; the United Order glorifies it. Latter-day Saints cannot be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet.

If there be those among us who feel aggrieved, out of harmony, or to criticize what the Presidency say on these burning issues of our times, it would be well to remember that these prophets are but declaring to us the will of the Father, and that the only open road to peace and happiness is to bring ourselves into harmony therewith.

May the Lord help each of us to have a consuming desire to know and do his will, and to recognize that his will is made known to us and all peoples of this generation through the revelations in the D&C and the interpretations and counsels of the living prophets, I humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
From the same talk:
Lucifer's offer was not in the same sweet, humble spirit (Moses 4:1-4). He was conscious that he had a brilliant intellect, and he wanted to be independent in the use of his own intelligence. He could not bring himself to consecrate his powers to the doing of the Father's will; he wanted the Father's glory; and so he proposed a substitute plan of his own. It was, of course, unworkable because conceived in darkness, as is every plan which is contrary to the Father's will, and was rejected.
...
Another fundamental to bear in mind in our search is that the manifestations of the Father's will to this generation did not cease with what is written in the D&C. He has not left us unguided to jangle over the interpretations of those revelations, nor does he leave us ignorant of his will on current issues. He has given us living prophets to interpret those revelations and to declare to us his will on present problems.
...
As long as the Prophet lived, the Lord revealed his will to that generation through him. And it is significant how much of what he revealed dealt with the issues of that day. Since the Prophet's martyrdom, the will of the Lord has been given through succeeding prophets, Presidents Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F. Smith, and Heber J. Grant, who each in his turn has presided over the Church, and, like unto Moses, has guided the people of his generation on the issues of their day by the spirit of revelation (see D&C 8:2-3; D&C 107:91).

During the administrations of all these leaders, those who have accepted them as prophets, who have truly believed that by the spirit of revelation they spoke the Father's will on the issues of the day, who have adjusted their thinking, their living, and their feelings to harmonize with the spirit and the letter of the words of these living prophets—they are the ones who have been comforted and who have had peace in their souls.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: Socialism

Post by James »

"You are a: Communist Interventionist Bleeding-Heart Liberal"

I've also tested as pro-government and anti-war last time I took the 5 pointed compass test a year or 2 ago. The communist and bleeding-heart parts are the consistent ones for me. So I guess I'm a communist.
I try to take a pragmatic approach as a member of society.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBOJ33FFDLA
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Re: Socialism

Post by Steve »

So what does that mean for you? What is your position on the major issues of the day?
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: Socialism

Post by James »

I'm a Bernie sanders person. Of primary importance is environmental issues. Thanks to Obama care my family can afford ins. I support a single payer system. Education cost is big. Though I've read that's mostly because the administrative positions of universities are to blame for that. Military spending should decrease. It's absurd that warren buffets effective tax rate is lower than his secretary's. I think the richest should pay the most. I think there has been a re-distribution in the wrong direction. Our resources could be more effectively used. Inequality and environment are the most important when it comes to politics.
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