Gun Control

[Betsy]

I'm not sure I know your position on the constitution (or anyone's, for that matter.) Laws have been important to God in our day, in past days, in future days, in every "days". Do you not think there were problems before the constitution was created? That's why it was created. We can both trust God, and create and obey laws. Why do you keep trying to separate the two? In your effort to "address the actual problem" you forget that part of what God has established for mankind's eternal welfare (yes, eternal) is the creation of laws. Or should we just eradicate all laws that are currently in place? The constitution was created for us to approach the problems of our day, even problems that arise that were unforeseen (such as problems with gun violence) . This is the remarkable nature of such a document.

I'm just going to go ahead and assume you see the news articles as superfluous and detrimental to your anti-gun safety stance.

[Steve]

And the Constitution guarantees inalienable rights including the right to bear arms. Members were taught to defend the Constitution against those who would corrupt it in these latter days. I read the account of this happening just last night in our family scripture study—we're in the book of Helaman:

For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.

(Helaman 5:2) ↗

I'm grateful that Jane and Abby read what Nephi did then:

And it came to pass that Nephi had become weary because of their iniquity; and he yielded up the judgment-seat, and took it upon him to preach the word of God all the remainder of his days, and his brother Lehi also, all the remainder of his days;

(Helaman 5:4)

Nephi and Lehi learned from their father, Helaman:

...yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ...

...the Lord surely should come to redeem his people, but that he should not come to redeem them in their sins, but to redeem them from their sins. And he hath power given unto him from the Father to redeem them from their sins because of repentance...

And they did remember his words; and therefore they went forth, keeping the commandments of God, to teach the word of God among all the people...

(Helaman 5:9-11, 14)

Again, let us not waste so much of our lives dealing with symptoms. Let us love one another to the extent that we are really willing to address the true reasons behind the violence. Let us have courage to take those actions that we know will have a lasting impact on this world. Satan would derail our efforts. He would gladly deceive us with things that appear good in order to keep us from the things that are essential. Don't allow the "gun control" smoke screen to deter you from the mission for which we were called in these latter days.

[Ian]

the purpose of the constitution is stated clearly in its preamble: to “secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.” liberty includes “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms.”

in deciding marbury v. madison, chief justice marshall famously explained that the constitution is “a superior, paramount law, unchangeable by ordinary means,” and that “a law repugnant to the constitution is void.”

a “gun ban” or “sweeping gun buy back” law would be repugnant to the constitution, and void.

[Betsy]

I'm afraid constitutional originalism is a faulty way to defend the true meaning of the constitution. Chief Marshall's words are basically a restatement of the constitution's supremacy clause (Article VI clause 2) which defend the constitution against the federal government or the states. However, the original document (as we all well now by now) was definitely not perfect. There were consequent amendments made. What's interesting is that I don't think the 2nd amendment even has to be amended. As it stands, the true meaning of the amendment is to have a well armed militia. I have no problem with this. What needs to happen is for the supreme court to interpret this correctly whilst promoting stronger action toward gun safety. While you may hate the idea of a national guns ban, you cannot argue that trying to make guns safer is a bad idea. This is where we can start. But it has to start with our leaders (and ourselves) saying yes to increased gun safety measures, and yes to gun safety legislature.

[John]

Actually, I think it can (and should) start elsewhere.

[Ian]

betsy is confusing two “supremacies.”

one “supremacy” is described in the supremacy clause of the constitution, which addresses conflicts between federal law and local law. in the event of such a conflict, federal law is supreme.

another “supremacy” is described in marbury v. madison, which addresses conflicts between the constitution and federal law. in the event of such a conflict, the constitution is supreme and the conflicting law is void.

[Steve]

Seeing as how we are drawing ever closer to where those who choose evil are more numerous than those who choose good, I'm not convinced that such a people should be touching our Constitution. I admit to being a bit surprised at your immense faith in our government and the citizens who determine policy. Not to say that many do not mean well, but why do you believe that the same voices leading the attack on the family would be divinely-inspired regarding firearms?

However, this too is beside the point. Any efforts to cure the evils that lead to violence with legislation will fail. So why would we "start" with wasted efforts when we can pursue avenues we know will yield lasting results? "Christ is the Prince of Peace. By truly serving him, every wrong can be adjusted. Bitterness and hatred can fade away. Wars can end. ... Do you believe Christ can do all this for you? If you do not so believe, are you sure you are a Christian? Christianity is not something to be used as a mere intellectual exercise. It is a way of life, and if applied it will solve all of our problems" (Elder Mark E. Petersen, Conference Report, October 1967).

[Betsy]

Again, let us not waste so much of our lives dealing with symptoms.

Why don't you go out and tell all of your local mayor, state representative, county clerk, and anyone who strives to make a difference in their community that they are wasting their time. I'm sure they would love to hear all of your reasons why they should just quit.

[Ian]

we elect mayors to perform needful administrative duties. we don't elect mayors to confiscate guns from law-abiding citizens.

[Steve]

Agreed, Ian. I'm not sure what elected officials, performing the charge they've actually been given, have to do with this discussion.

"The wise and the prudent, with all their energy of thought, could never see the things of the Father sufficiently to recognize them as true. ... They work only to gather by the senses, and deduce from what they have so gathered, the prudential, the probable, the expedient, the protective. They never think of the essential, of what in itself must be. They are cautious, wary, discreet, judicious, circumspect, provident, temporizing. ... They do not perceive, or they turn away from any truth which the intellect cannot formulate. Zeal for God will never eat them up: why should it? ... These wise and prudent, careful to make the words of his messengers rime with their conclusions, interpret the great heart of God, not by their own hearts, but by their miserable intellects; and, postponing the obedience which alone can give power to the understanding, press upon men's minds their wretched interpretations of the will of the Father, instead of the doing of that will upon their hearts" (George MacDonald).

Betsy, it appears you'll have to find out for yourself that your zeal for secular solutions to the problems of violence and turmoil will not lead to the peace you're seeking. When you do, I hope you'll focus your energy and social media efforts on the things that matter most. Consider it a scientific experiment, if that appeals to you:

Yea, even that ye would have so much faith as even to plant the word in your hearts, that ye may try the experiment of its goodness. (Alma 34:4)

And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God. (Alma 31:5)

[Ian]

on the morning of april 7, 1935, during general conference, president j. reuben clark delivered a talk about the constitution. he stated, in part:

I desire, my brethren and sisters, to speak upon a matter than which nothing is nearer to my heart in this world. I want to speak of it in soberness, in sincerity, and with all the earnestness I can command. The matter about which I wish to speak is the Constitution of the United States, and the Government provided for and set up under it….

DIVINE WORD REGARDING HUMAN GOVERNMENT

The Lord is here declaring the scope and fundamental principle of the Constitution of the United States:

That every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
Therefore it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.
And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose.

To me, my brethren and sisters, that statement of the Lord, "I have established the Constitution of this land," puts the Constitution of the United States in the position in which it would be if it were written in this book of D&C itself. This makes the Constitution the word of the Lord to us. That it was given, not by oral utterance, but by the operation of his mind and spirit upon the minds of men, inspiring them to the working out of this great document of human government, does not alter its authority.

RELIGION AND THE CONSTITUTION

The first Congress of the United States, when it began to consider the operations of the government under the Constitution, became impressed that there was not in that document, as originally drawn, any so-called Bill of Rights; there were in the document no provisions which should keep the people free, which should protect them in their daily lives, nor guarantee to them the great liberties which the Declaration of Independence declared were the heritage of men. Accordingly this Congress proposed to the original states the first ten amendments to the Constitution, and it is significant, I am sure, of the influence which the Lord was at that time bringing to bear upon the minds of men, that the very first clause of the very first amendment declared:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Thus the very first thing which our fathers sought to secure for themselves and for their posterity was freedom to worship as they wished. I do not need to call to your minds the trials and persecution which this people have suffered in the past, in order to bring home to you the conviction that nothing else in the great document, the Constitution, is so important to this people as is this guarantee of religious freedom, because underneath and behind all that lies in our lives, all that we do in our lives, is our religion, our worship, our belief and faith in God. We need the Constitution and its guarantees of liberty and freedom more than any other people in the world, for, few and weak as we are, we stand naked and helpless except when clothed with its benign provisions.

ENDEAVORING TO ESTABLISH MODERN PAGANISM

So well known is this, so thoroughly is it understood that the dictators of the world are now seeking to take hold of the religion of the people over whom they rule. They are doing away, or trying to, with the churches of Christianity. They are trying to establish, even in great and progressive nations, a modern paganism. That can never be done under the Constitution of the United States, and that is why its protection and preservation come to us as one of the most vital duties we can have in life.

FUNDAMENTALS OF CONSTITUTION GOD-GIVEN

One of the most important things that we can do for the Church is to stand behind the Constitution of the United States. That does not mean, and no reasoning person would suppose that it meant, that that Constitution may not from time to time be changed as the needs of the people would seem to require. But it does mean that that Constitution should be changed only under the urge of great necessity, and then only in accordance with its great underlying concepts. It does mean that the great fundamental elements of the Constitution are God-given, for he said so. It does mean to me as an individual that the Constitution of the United States and my adherence to it and support of it is a part of my religion.

I have about the Constitution that same sort of conviction that I have about the other doctrines that we are taught, for I believe its precepts are among the doctrines of the Church, and I believe that the Lord will change and modify from time to time those details of its provisions which are ancilliary to its great principles; he will cause us—those who live under it—to modify it in accordance with our needs; but the fundamental principles of it we may not sacrifice.

ELEMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF CONSTITUTION

We may not abrogate the great principles that the majority must rule; that we shall live under a written Constitution; that we shalt be governed by people chosen by the free, untrammeled, and uncompelled will of the people; that there shall be an absolute guarantee of our personal liberties, as also of our rights to property, and to the protection therefor; that there shall continue freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and freedom of religion; that the punishment of common crime and misdemeanors shall remain the function of state, county and municipal government; that there shall be three great and wholly independent branches of government—the executive, the legislative, and the judicial; that the determination of the constitutionality of legislative acts shall continue in the judiciary; that no power shall exist in one branch of government to delegate its power and authority to another; that the rights and power of the executive branch of the government shall continue to be merely that of executing the aw; that the federal government shall continue to guarantee to every state a republican form of government. If time permitted I could mention other principles of like importance to these.

NO DICTATORSHIP IN AMERICA

A proper understanding of the Constitution of the United States makes clear that, under it, there is no room in America for a dictatorship. There are those in subordinate positions in government, there are those among us, citizens of this country, who are looking forward to some sort of overturning which would make opportunity for the establishment of some other sort of government than that provided by our Constitution. It is my faith and belief that these overtures, these revolutionists, are but few, but they are attacking the citadel of our liberties, they are attacking the guarantee of the freedom of our worship, and the Latter-day Saints can not be numbered among them.

IN NEED OF CONVICTIONS

Convictions are the great need of the people of the world today. Men need to be convinced of something. They need religious convictions, and it is not, in the first instance so important what those convictions may be, looking to the peace and ordered condition of the world. The people of the world need convictions regarding righteousness in civic and political life; they need convictions on the eternal verities of right and wrong. Great masses of people everywhere in the world are wandering aimlessly in their religious, in their intellectual, in their social, and in their civic lives, without any guiding principles; "every wind of doctrine" strains the moorings that have held them for generations.

This must be changed.

OUR OPPORTUNITY AND MISSION

This great audience is a demonstration that among the Latter-day Saints there still remain convictions in all of the fields of human endeavor and activity which I have named. It is our opportunity to make of these convictions our glory. It is our opportunity and our duty to make of these the leaven that "leaveneth the whole lump." In so far as we fail to do this, we shall fail in the mission which the Lord gave to us, and shall not reach the destiny which he has set for us.

My brethren and sisters, this nation of ours has a record of achievement behind it that we may not lightly cast aside, for it is builded upon the experiences of men during the ages that are past. Consider our growth and our development, consider what we are, consider how we have come to be what we are, contemplate this government of ours, this heritage which our fathers bought with their lives and bequeathed to us, and then do not lightly thrust aside the great fundamentals of our national life for something yet untried.

May the Lord be with us at all times, under all circumstances; may he bring into our lives a burning desire to uphold the Constitution, a living faith in its inspired origin, that we may always be found among those who shall support it to the last breath. May God give us this I ask in the name of Jesus. Amen.

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., General Conference, April 1935 (Conference Report pp. 89-96)

that afternoon, president david o. mckay stated the following:

I was particularly pleased with President Clark's message this morning regarding the fundamentals of our government. In keeping therewith I desire to call attention to the fact that the united, well-ordered American home is one of the greatest contributing factors to the preservation of the Constitution of the United States….

Parenthood and particularly motherhood should be held as a sacred obligation. There is something in the depths of the human soul which revolts against neglectful parenthood. Recently an incident occurred in one of the European countries which illustrates how the sense of humanity is injured when a mother selfishly and wilfully fails to take care of her children. When I read that capital punishment had been meted out to such a woman I thought that the state was almost barbarous, but really it was not the execution of the law that was so terrible but the woman herself who by cruel neglect of her children committed the crime against humanity. How deep-seated is this soul condemnation of one who will sacrifice a child for her own indulgence or even to save her own life is impressively set forth by Robert Browning in his dramatic idyll, descriptive of a mother who had to pay the extreme penalty for having lived to tell the story of her children's death.

A mother bears a child: perfection is complete
So far in such a birth. Enabled to repeat
The miracle of life,—herself was born so just
A type of womankind, that God sees fit to trust
Her with the holy task of giving life in turn.

How say you, should the hand of God trusted with life's torch
Kindled to light the—world aware of sparks that scorch,
Let fall the same? Forsooth, her flesh a fireflake stings:
The mother drops the child! Among what monstrous things
Shall she be classed?

The fox-dam, hunger-pined, will slay the felon sire
Who dares assault her whelp: the beaver, stretched on fire,
Will die without a groan; no pang avails to wrest
Her young from where they hide—her sanctuary breast.
What's here then? Answer me, thou dead one, as I trow,
Standing at God's bar, he bids thee answer now!

It is an extreme dramatic presentation, but it illustrates that something which God has implanted deep in every human breast that parents cannot with impunity shirk the responsibility to protect childhood and youth.

There seems to be a growing tendency to shift this responsibility from the home to outside influences such as the school and the church. Important as these outward influences are, they never can take the place of the influence of the mother and the father—constant training, constant vigilance, companionship, being watchmen of our own children, are necessary in order to keep our homes intact.

The fact cannot be too strongly emphasized that the real source of security of our nation rests in the well-ordered and properly conducted home….

It is a mother's duty so to live that her children will associate with her everything that is beautiful, sweet and pure. And fathers, even the poorest of us, from a financial standpoint, may so conduct our lives as to be able to say to our sons in the words of a poet:

I have no wealth to leave you, and no fame.
This must be your inheritance: my name. . . .
(In interest of brevity not read but now added)
I have tried to make my name synonymous
In all mens' minds, with things the most worthwhile;
With strength to do the right, though none might see me;
With grit to meet disaster with a smile;
With loyalty to those with claims upon me;
With justice equally toward foe and friend;
With honor, truth, integrity, square dealing—
"My word my bond."
Now, as I reach the end,
Too well I know that I have failed in efforts
Where I have wanted greatly to succeed;
Too oft I've seen my dreams, bright in the forming,
Prove naught but vain imaginings, indeed.
But this I do believe: when I have traveled
Life's twisting road, and worked out Life's great plan,—
When I have gone beyond life's praise or blaming—
It will be said of me, "He was a man."
And so, because of this, I feel no shame
When I bequeath to you, my son, my name.

... Would you have a strong and virile nation, keep your homes pure—would you reduce delinquency and crime, lessen the number of broken homes. It is time that civilized peoples realized that prevention is more profitable than punishment, and that the home is the incubator either of children of high character or of criminals. Home building, therefore, should be the paramount purpose of parents and of the nation. In "Home, The Savior of Civilization," we read:

When one puts business or pleasure above his home, he that moment starts on the down grade to soul ruin. The loss of fortune is nothing compared with the loss of home. When the club becomes more attractive to any man than his home, it is time for him to confess in bitter shame that he has failed to measure up to the supreme opportunity of his life and has flunked in the final test of true manhood. No other success can compensate for failure in the home. This is the one thing of limitless potentialities on earth. The poorest shack of a home in which love prevails over a united family is of greater value to God and future humanity than the richest bank on earth. In such a home God can work miracles and will work miracles. The greatest miracle that King Herod ever saw was John the Baptist. The religious home, though poor, produced John the Baptist. The most dazzling miracle of all history is Jesus of Nazareth. His education was that of a united religious home. Pure hearts in a pure home are always in whispering istance of heaven. In such a home there is always a key which one may use in opening the reservoirs of the infinite and start a Pentecost. The great, good God who made this world ordained man and woman for the home and He is seeing to it that they may search the whole world over, but will never find the sweetest joys of life anywhere but in the home. In obedience to God's law for human life, one should make it his highest ambition to build an ideal home. Make home your hobby, for, if anyone makes a loving home with all his heart, he can never miss heaven.

President David O. McKay, General Conference, April 1935 (Conference Report pp. 110-116)

[Betsy]

I'm not sure what elected officials, performing the charge they've actually been given, have to do with this discussion.

They have everything to do with this discussion. We elect our leaders. Leaders vote in law making processes. The law is established. This is not a "secular solution". God wants us to obey and honor the laws of the land. Why do you believe this is so? So that we just have something to do?

You repeatedly try to make it look like I am saying that law making is the only route toward greater peace. I am a member of this church. Having strong families and faith and repentance and prayer and trust in God is the very foundation to how I live my life. But I know, with the same certainty that God exists, that we have a divinely sanctioned, civic duty to elect leaders who will responsibly work hard to make our country and communities safer places to be. Our attempts to fight fire with more firearms is failing. Failing miserably. We fail our future children if we step back like cowards and allow guns to overrun our homes and communities.

Vote for leaders that will strive for gun safety.

[Ian]

betsy can demonstrate her courage by posting this sign in her yard.

[Betsy]

Interestingly, Ian lives in a home that is completely gun free. I wonder why that is, when he is so pro gun.

[Steve]

Betsy: You repeatedly try to make it look like I am saying that law making is the only route toward greater peace.

At this point in our country's history, we know that laws are not the thing that will bring us peace. You keep skipping over this straightforward fact in each of your posts. Laws will not fix what is broken right now. This has already been established.

Betsy: Having strong families and faith and repentance and prayer and trust in God is the very foundation to how I live my life.

Great! Preach those things.

Betsy: Our attempts to fight fire with more firearms is failing. Failing miserably.

As will attempts to fight fire with less firearms, I assure you. And I agree with the use of "miserable" as a descriptor.

Betsy: We fail our future children if we step back like cowards and allow guns to overrun our homes and communities.

Surely we mustn't be cowards. We must be courageous enough to do those things that will appear as folly to those who don't know what you and I know, Betsy. And guns are the absolute least of my concerns in my home and community.

Betsy: Vote for leaders that will strive for gun safety.

Vote for leaders "who will act with integrity and are wise, good, and honest" (letter by the First Presidency, October 9, 2014). ↗

PS - Thanks for sharing those, Ian. I am grateful for the "fundamental principles" that are God-given. I am grateful for prophets who tell us how to solve the problems we see around us. I am grateful for righteous mothers, and for civilizations that recognize home-building (and not government intervention) as the key to peace and joy.