Gun Control

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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Steve »

Ian: i thank steve for posting quotes and scriptures, which are obviously pertinent, but frankly i’m a little jealous that you seem to get all the credit lately for posting long quotes. have i lost that distinction? i’ll have to do something about that. i’ve been meaning to post president ezra taft benson’s “credo of a conservative” for a while, it’s a great read.
Hey, if someone would create a discourses forum, we could work together. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll take a look.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

I did not read through all of the pop news articles posted because I do not value the sources. It's not a stretch to assume that this is why you did not read mine.
That is quite the assumption, my friend! Quite.
At this point, it's devolved into making you and Micah upset and that's not a good environment for learning.
How sure are you that I am upset? Are the smilies not working? :D
And you believe that Satan has nothing to do with the mentally ill putting a gun to their head? Again, I'm really not trying to argue with you. This isn't really helping you.
Ok now THIS is interesting! What exactly do you think mental illness is? Hopefully not some sort of sin....but that's kind what you are saying! Gasp! We've struck gold here.
Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

here's how I see it. The constitution is failing to protect us. We should amend it. simple enough?
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Ian
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Ian »

the constitution isn't failing to protect us. it's protecting exactly what it was designed to protect. it protects us against government infringement of our rights, including our right to keep and bear arms.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

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That is quite the assumption, my friend! Quite.
In a discussion where the words of prophets are shared and a person doesn't read them, what do you think will be the presenting party's interpretation? If something is important to me, I do not dismiss or bypass it. On the other hand, if it is not important to me, I do not read or consume it. Just curious as to why you think my assumptions are so far-fetched.

-----
Betsy: How sure are you that I am upset?
Betsy: Still a little bit miffed...
-----
Betsy: What exactly do you think mental illness is? Hopefully not some sort of sin....but that's kind what you are saying! Gasp! We've struck gold here.
Fool's gold, I'm afraid. Notice, I did not say the person was committing sin (and no, that's not even kind of what I'm saying). Ah, how desperately we are in need of returning to basic gospel principles. We still can't seem to distinguish between simple concepts. When a mentally-ill person takes their own life, is that good or evil? Let's see:
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
...
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

(Moroni 7:15, 17)
Satan, who is the father of all lies, can cause people to believe that they are worthless and have no purpose. When people start thinking that way, we need to get to them quickly. They need to know they are a son or daughter of God and that they are loved.

(Elder M. Russell Ballard, Sitting on the Bench: Thoughts on Suicide Prevention)
Who causes people to believe they should kill themselves? Is killing yourself good or evil? Are the influences that convince a mentally-ill person to kill themselves good or evil? I'm not suggesting they are accountable for that evil. I am simply asking if evil and wickedness are involved, or if it's light and righteousness involved. As you can see, when mining others' comments for things to attack (and apparently getting quite excited by the prospect), all that glitters may not be gold.
Betsy: The constitution is failing to protect us.
Elder Neil L. Andersen: If you have a question about counsel from the leaders of the Church, please discuss your honest concerns with your parents and leaders. You need the strength that comes from trusting the Lord’s prophets. President Harold B. Lee said: “The only safety we have as members of this church is to … learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through His prophet. … There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes. … It may contradict your political views … your social views … interfere with … your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord Himself, … ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against you … and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you …’ (D&C 21:6).”

(Elder Neil L. Andersen, Spiritual Whirlwinds, April 2014 General Conference); NOTE: This is a direct quote and the ellipses were used by Elder Andersen.
The divinely-conceived Constitution that is to be "established forever" will do just fine if we recognize that our only protection and safety lies in giving heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through His prophet.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

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Who causes people to believe they should kill themselves? Is killing yourself good or evil? Are the influences that convince a mentally-ill person to kill themselves good or evil? I'm not suggesting they are accountable for those actions. I am simply asking if evil and wickedness are involved, or if it's the Lord who encourages individuals to take their own lives. As you can see, when mining others' comments for things to attack (and apparently getting quite excited at the prospect), all that glitters may not be gold.
You asked a lot of questions but answered none of them. Also, don't you mean "WHAT causes people to believe they should kill themselves"?

Neither the Lord nor Satan is to blame for mental illness. Sickness is part of the mortal experience. When you get sick or break your leg, do you blame any of it on anybody? Of course not! (Unless Satan came at you with a baseball bat..) I apologize for my enthusiasm, it's just that part of the reform I long for is a greater understanding of what mental illness is, since it's often brought up along with gun control as a way to distract from actually discussing gun control. I'm enthused to talk about mental health because we talk a lot about it in our house. Sorry not sorry!!

If you understand that depression is not something you can just repent of, then you will understand that wickedness is not really the only factor for our nations gun problem (or I should say mental health/suicide problem, since other gun violence can be attributed to wickedness) When people make the argument "guns don't kill people, people kill people" this makes zero sense when applied to suicide (It makes zero sense when applied to anything really). People committing suicide are not necessarily wicked. In taking their own life they have not committed a sin. Having a chemical imbalance in your brain makes you incapable of making rational decisions. Therefore, the solution of "we just need to keep the commandments" does nothing to solve our mental illness problem, or the problem of homicides/suicides committed by people who are mentally ill.

After speaking with Margaret today, it looks like both James and I have finals to prepare for the next few weeks. I'm having way to much fun on here, but I will have to declare a brief hiatus in order to really focus on my studies. Ya'll can keep discussing, I'll be back later after finals , and then we can really have some fun!
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Ian
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Ian »

suicide is in fact a very grievous sin, but a person who commits suicide might not be entirely accountable (see elder ballard's article). the fact that some people suffer from mental illness does not give the government license to infringe our rights.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

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Betsy: "Neither the Lord nor Satan is to blame for mental illness." :shock:

Betsy: "If you understand that depression is not something you can just repent of, then you will understand" :?

Betsy: "People committing suicide are not necessarily wicked." :|

Betsy: "Therefore, the solution of 'we just need to keep the commandments' does nothing to solve our mental illness problem, or the problem of homicides/suicides committed by people who are mentally ill." :cry:

:giveup:

I quote you directly when I respond to you to show you that I am listening. Throughout this discussion, I've asked a number of times for you to show me where I said something that you claim I said. You never respond to any of these requests or acknowledge you were wrong. You just keep talking. This isn't a discussion, Betsy. Discussion implies that you listen to me and that I listen to you. I read what you write and respond to those specific things. You do the same for me. I've said this before. We cannot communicate with one another if either of us talks through or over the other person.

You suggest that I claimed that depression is something you can just repent of. Will you please provide the quote?

You suggest that I claimed that all those who commit suicide are necessarily wicked. Will you please provide the quote?

Regarding your other two assertions, I'm afraid you are mistaken. Suggesting that neither God nor Satan are responsible (notice I did not use the word "blame") for mental illness raises compelling questions. Does mental illness appear by accident? By magic? Did it surprise the Lord when it appeared in the mortal experience? Is Satan not pleased when a mentally-ill person takes their own life? What is this neutral force that you acknowledge impacts so many in this world without any apparent connection to good or evil, completely beyond the grasp of the Author of Creation?

Your claim that my keeping the commandments does nothing to solve the world's mental illness problem is short-sighted and faithless. Again, if you would go back and read my quotes, I already included a number of authoritative statements that utterly reject such a claim—indeed, they claim the exact opposite. I'm certain that such a solution does seem silly to you, though. Our prophets promised us that there would be people who would think so. I can only do as they recommend and invite you to pray to know of these things for yourself. I cannot prove that these things are true through word alone.
Why do over 19,000 of our young men and women accept a call to leave their home, their family, their school, their friends, and go into the nations of the world, many times under very hostile conditions? Surely not for monetary reward (they pay their own way), not to secure position or power or worldly acclaim, but only to share the truth of the message of the restoration—the roots of Mormonism—with the children of our Heavenly Father. I ask, why do they do it? They do it because they know they have the answer to all the world’s problems, particularly man’s inhumanity to man.

(Hartman Rector, Jr., The Roots of Mormonism, April 1975 General Conference) Note: Emphasis was included by Elder Rector, Jr. and wasn't added after the fact.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: Gun Control

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In the ordinary household the amount of machine horse-power expended in fighting for the truth is really quite absurd. This pure zeal for the establishment and general admission of the truth is usually termed 'contradictoriness.' But, of course, it is not that; it is something higher. My wife states that the Joneses have gone into a new flat, of which the rent is £165 a year. Now, Jones has told me personally that the rent of his new flat is £156 a year. I correct my wife. Knowing that she is in the right, she corrects me. She cannot bear that a falsehood should prevail. It is not a question of £9, it is a question of truth. Her enthusiasm for truth excites my enthusiasm for truth. Five minutes ago I didn't care twopence whether the rent of the Joneses' new flat was £165 or £156 or £1056 a year. But now I care intensely that it is £156. I have formed myself into a select society for the propagating of the truth about the rent of the Joneses' new flat, and my wife has done the same. In eloquence, in argumentative skill, in strict supervision of our tempers, we each of us squander enormous quantities of that h.-p. which is so precious to us. And the net effect is naught.

Now, if one of us two had understood the elementary principles of human engineering, that one would have said (privately): 'Truth is indestructible. Truth will out. Truth is never in a hurry. If it doesn't come out to-day it will come out to-morrow or next year. It can take care of itself. Ultimately my wife (or my husband) will learn the essential cosmic truth about the rent of the Joneses' new flat. I already know it, and the moment when she (or he) knows it also will be the moment of my triumph. She (or he) will not celebrate my triumph openly, but it will be none the less real. And my reputation for accuracy and calm restraint will be consolidated. If, by a rare mischance, I am in error, it will be vastly better for me in the day of my undoing that I have not been too positive now. Besides, nobody has appointed me sole custodian of the great truth concerning the rent of the Joneses' new flat. I was not brought into the world to be a safe-deposit, and more urgent matters summon me to effort.' If one of us had meditated thus, much needless friction would have been avoided and power saved; amour-propre would not have been exposed to risks; the sacred cause of truth would not in the least have suffered; and the rent of the Joneses' new flat would anyhow have remained exactly what it is.

In addition to straining the machine by our excessive anxiety for the spread of truth, we give a very great deal too much attention to the state of other people's machines. I cannot too strongly, too sarcastically, deprecate this astonishing habit. It will be found to be rife in nearly every household and in nearly every office. We are most of us endeavouring to rearrange the mechanism in other heads than our own. This is always dangerous and generally futile. Considering the difficulty we have in our own brains, where our efforts are sure of being accepted as well-meant, and where we have at any rate a rough notion of the machine's construction, our intrepidity in adventuring among the delicate adjustments of other brains is remarkable. We are cursed by too much of the missionary spirit. We must needs voyage into the China of our brother's brain, and explain there that things are seriously wrong in that heathen land, and make ourselves unpleasant in the hope of getting them put right. We have all our own brain and body on which to wreak our personality, but this is not enough; we must extend our personality further, just as though we were a colonising world-power intoxicated by the idea of the 'white man's burden.'

One of the central secrets of efficient daily living is to leave our daily companions alone a great deal more than we do, and attend to ourselves. If a daily companion is conducting his life upon principles which you know to be false, and with results which you feel to be unpleasant, the safe rule is to keep your mouth shut. Or if, out of your singular conceit, you are compelled to open it, open it with all precautions, and with the formal politeness you would use to a stranger. Intimacy is no excuse for rough manners, though the majority of us seem to think it is. You are not in charge of the universe; you are in charge of yourself. You cannot hope to manage the universe in your spare time, and if you try you will probably make a mess of such part of the universe as you touch, while gravely neglecting yourself. In every family there is generally some one whose meddlesome interest in other machines leads to serious friction in his own. Criticise less, even in the secrecy of your chamber. And do not blame at all. Accept your environment and adapt yourself to it in silence, instead of noisily attempting to adapt your environment to yourself. Here is true wisdom. You have no business trespassing beyond the confines of your own individuality. In so trespassing you are guilty of impertinence. This is obvious. And yet one of the chief activities of home-life consists in prancing about at random on other people's private lawns.

(Arnold Bennett, The Human Machine, 1925)
Indeed, truth is indestructible. Truth will out. Truth is never in a hurry. If it doesn't come out to-day it will come out to-morrow or next year. It can take care of itself. I woke up in the middle of the night last night with these thoughts running through my head. Truth has been shared in this thread. It is true regardless of whether or not any agree with it, or acknowledge it, or ignore it, or fight for it, or fight against it. Now that I've had a chance to post what I know to be true, there's no need for me to continue to press for its validity, to emerge victorious from the debate. Each family member is free to choose how they respond to what's been shared. What's "right" and "true" will eventually surface and all will know it. In the meantime, I need to continue to focus on asking the Lord for charity—I do not wish to remain as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. I do not need to be "right." I need to "be right."

I started reading President Benson's "credo" passage from Cross Fire: The Eight Years with Eisenhower. You're right, Ian, it is a great read. Despite the imperfect nature of this discussion, I readily give thanks for it, as I've learned a great deal and have found ways, usually through the words of far better men, to articulate my thoughts on important issues. If I've offended anyone in the process, I have failed in that regard, and I continue to ask for your patience and forgiveness as I seek the Lord's help in my weakness. I appreciate the words of Alma the Younger to his son Shiblon, and hope that I can consider my own behavior in this light:
10 And now, as ye have begun to teach the word even so I would that ye should continue to teach; and I would that ye would be diligent and temperate in all things.

11 See that ye are not lifted up unto pride; yea, see that ye do not boast in your own wisdom, nor of your much strength.

12 Use boldness, but not overbearance; and also see that ye bridle all your passions, that ye may be filled with love; see that ye refrain from idleness.

13 Do not pray as the Zoramites do, for ye have seen that they pray to be heard of men, and to be praised for their wisdom.

14 Do not say: O God, I thank thee that we are better than our brethren; but rather say: O Lord, forgive my unworthiness, and remember my brethren in mercy—yea, acknowledge your unworthiness before God at all times.

15 And may the Lord bless your soul, and receive you at the last day into his kingdom, to sit down in peace. Now go, my son, and teach the word unto this people. Be sober. My son, farewell.

(Alma 38:10-15)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

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President Obama's address to the nation overrode the First Presidency Christmas Devotional on Sunday evening here in Utah on the local broadcast stations. Consequently, we had to crowd around the computer to watch the devotional.

When both were finished, I contrasted the two messages.
President Barack Obama:The threat from terrorism is real, but we will overcome it. We will destroy ISIL and any other organization that tries to harm us. Our success won't depend on tough talk, or abandoning our values, or giving into fear. That's what groups like ISIL are hoping for. Instead, we will prevail by being strong and smart, resilient and relentless, and by drawing upon every aspect of American power.

Here's how. First, our military will continue to hunt down terrorist plotters in any country where it is necessary. ... Second, we will continue to provide training and equipment to tens of thousands of Iraqi and Syrian forces fighting ISIL on the ground so that we take away their safe havens. ... Third, we're working with friends and allies to stop ISIL's operations -- to disrupt plots, cut off their financing, and prevent them from recruiting more fighters. ... Fourth, with American leadership, the international community has begun to establish a process -- and timeline -- to pursue ceasefires and a political resolution to the Syrian war. ... This is our strategy to destroy ISIL. ...

I know there are some who reject any gun safety measures. But the fact is that our intelligence and law enforcement agencies -- no matter how effective they are -- cannot identify every would-be mass shooter, whether that individual is motivated by ISIL or some other hateful ideology. What we can do -- and must do -- is make it harder for them to kill. ...

Thank you. God bless you, and may God bless the United States of America.

(President Barack Obama, Address to the nation, 12/6/2015)
Elder L. Whitney Clayton: And yet, despite life’s hardships, the message of the Lord to each of us is the same today as it was to the shepherds keeping watch two thousand years ago: “Fear not.” Perhaps the angel’s injunction to fear not has more transcendent relevance to us today than it did in calming the shepherds’ fear that first Christmas night. Could he also have meant for us to understand that because of the Savior, fear will never triumph? to reinforce that ultimate fear is never justified? to remind us that no earthly problem need be lasting, that none of us is beyond redeeming?

The sweetest gift given at Christmas will always be the one our Savior Himself gave us: His perfect peace. He said: “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid” (John 14:27). Even in a world where peace seems far off, the Savior’s gift of peace can live in our hearts regardless of our circumstances. If we accept the Savior’s invitation to follow Him, lasting fear is forever banished. Our future has been secured. These are the “good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.” “Fear thou not,” the prophet Isaiah reminded us, “for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness” (Isaiah 41:10).

(Elder L. Whitney Clayton, Fear Not, 12/6/2015)
Sister Linda K. Burton: As we consider His incomprehensible suffering for us, surely among the saddest five words our Savior ever uttered were these: “Will ye also go away?” When times are difficult, we can make the choice to turn away from Him and struggle through our afflictions alone, or we can make the choice to turn to Him and the Father’s plan, finding that we will “suffer no manner of afflictions, save it were swallowed up in the joy of Christ.” My prayer for each of us is to accept the invitation of the sacred Christmas hymn to “come, let us adore him” and our Heavenly Father for His glorious and perfect plan!

(Sister Linda K. Burton, Oh, Come, Let Us Adore Him—and the Plan!, 12/6/2015)
Elder David A. Bednar: In every season of our lives, in all of the circumstances we may encounter, and in each challenge we may face, Jesus Christ is the light that dispels fear, provides assurance and direction, and engenders enduring peace and joy.

(Elder David A. Bednar, The Light and the Life of the World, 12/6/2015)
President Dieter F. Uchtdorf: Even when the world may appear quite dark—when things aren’t going right, when our hearts are overflowing with disappointment and worry, even in the midst of sadness and sorrow—we sing about “joy to the world” and “good will toward men” because of Christ, who came “to give light to them that sit in darkness.”

(President Dieter F. Uchtforf, The Generous One, 12/6/2015)
Next, I contrasted our current government's response to the threat of violence with Lachoneus' response in the Book of Mormon.
3:1 And now it came to pass that in the sixteenth year from the coming of Christ, Lachoneus, the governor of the land, received an epistle from the leader and the governor of this band of robbers; and these were the words which were written, saying:

2 Lachoneus, most noble and chief governor of the land, behold, I write this epistle unto you, and do give unto you exceedingly great praise because of your firmness, and also the firmness of your people, in maintaining that which ye suppose to be your right and liberty; yea, ye do stand well, as if ye were supported by the hand of a god, in the defence of your liberty, and your property, and your country, or that which ye do call so.

3 And it seemeth a pity unto me, most noble Lachoneus, that ye should be so foolish and vain as to suppose that ye can stand against so many brave men who are at my command, who do now at this time stand in their arms, and do await with great anxiety for the word—Go down upon the Nephites and destroy them.

4 And I, knowing of their unconquerable spirit, having proved them in the field of battle, and knowing of their everlasting hatred towards you because of the many wrongs which ye have done unto them, therefore if they should come down against you they would visit you with utter destruction.
...
12 Now behold, this Lachoneus, the governor, was a just man, and could not be frightened by the demands and the threatenings of a robber; therefore he did not hearken to the epistle of Giddianhi, the governor of the robbers, but he did cause that his people should cry unto the Lord for strength against the time that the robbers should come down against them.
...
15 Yea, he said unto them: As the Lord liveth, except ye repent of all your iniquities, and cry unto the Lord, ye will in nowise be delivered out of the hands of those Gadianton robbers.
...
19 Now it was the custom among all the Nephites to appoint for their chief captains, (save it were in their times of wickedness) some one that had the spirit of revelation and also prophecy; therefore, this Gidgiddoni was a great prophet among them, as also was the chief judge.

20 Now the people said unto Gidgiddoni: Pray unto the Lord, and let us go up upon the mountains and into the wilderness, that we may fall upon the robbers and destroy them in their own lands.

21 But Gidgiddoni saith unto them: The Lord forbid; for if we should go up against them the Lord would deliver us into their hands; therefore we will prepare ourselves in the center of our lands, and we will gather all our armies together, and we will not go against them, but we will wait till they shall come against us; therefore as the Lord liveth, if we do this he will deliver them into our hands.
...
25 And they did fortify themselves against their enemies; and they did dwell in one land, and in one body, and they did fear the words which had been spoken by Lachoneus, insomuch that they did repent of all their sins; and they did put up their prayers unto the Lord their God, that he would deliver them in the time that their enemies should come down against them to battle.

...

4:29 May the Lord preserve his people in righteousness and in holiness of heart, that they may cause to be felled to the earth all who shall seek to slay them because of power and secret combinations, even as this man hath been felled to the earth.

30 And they did rejoice and cry again with one voice, saying: May the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, protect this people in righteousness, so long as they shall call on the name of their God for protection.

31 And it came to pass that they did break forth, all as one, in singing, and praising their God for the great thing which he had done for them, in preserving them from falling into the hands of their enemies.

32 Yea, they did cry: Hosanna to the Most High God. And they did cry: Blessed be the name of the Lord God Almighty, the Most High God.

33 And their hearts were swollen with joy, unto the gushing out of many tears, because of the great goodness of God in delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; and they knew it was because of their repentance and their humility that they had been delivered from an everlasting destruction.

(3 Nephi 3, 4:29-33)
If we repent and turn our hearts to the Lord, we have nothing to fear. If we do not repent and turn our hearts to the Lord, it really doesn't matter what strategies or remedies we adopt. We will not be delivered from destruction. I am grateful that despite our current government's self-conceit and lack of humility before God (and its subsequent policies that run contrary to what we know to be right), our country was founded by humbler men and women who laid the foundation for the freedoms we enjoy today. I am grateful that we have heavenly messengers today. If we listen to the right messengers, I know that we can enjoy peace in this life and the life to come.

The next three verses from 3 Nephi:
1 And now behold, there was not a living soul among all the people of the Nephites who did doubt in the least the words of all the holy prophets who had spoken; for they knew that it must needs be that they must be fulfilled.

2 And they knew that it must be expedient that Christ had come, because of the many signs which had been given, according to the words of the prophets; and because of the things which had come to pass already they knew that it must needs be that all things should come to pass according to that which had been spoken.

3 Therefore they did forsake all their sins, and their abominations, and their whoredoms, and did serve God with all diligence day and night.

(3 Nephi 5:1-3)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

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One might think that the revelations coming through radio, television and other things, would draw men nearer to God; but it is not so. Men are more inclined to boast in their own strength, denying divine aid. Crime has increased. The integrity of men has diminished. From the writings of the press we may well believe that we are approaching the day predicted by Jesus Christ, when he said, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Are the peoples of the earth approaching this same condition? World events indicate that they are; we have endured more grievous wars and bloodshed than in any other century. Nations have been, and are, arrayed against each other. Conflict, trouble, evil prevail. Governments with large populations have denied God. They have tried to make the state supreme and have taken from the people their agency.

What of our own country? The Lord raised up honorable men to make it a land of freedom, and he declared: "It is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another. And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood."

In those days men loved God. They walked humbly. They laid a firm foundation on which we were to build. Are we walking in their path? Are we maintaining the same standard, insuring a free government and a free people? Ours is a nation basically built on equity, virtue, and love. Have we lost our sense of justice? Our integrity? Our love of truth and our honor in the discharge of duty? Have we become victims of greed? Have we forgotten the path of virtue? Do we wink at and tolerate the violation of the marriage covenant and look upon marriage as a temporary contract to be broken at will? Is chastity forgotten?

When we learn of men chosen to represent the people violating their trust, when we read of robbery, murder, the reign of gangsters who brazenly defy the law, we may wonder if we are not approaching the day of decadence like the ancient nations.

Let us return to individual and national integrity, love of God and country, be honest in our dealings with each other, virtuous in our lives. Here lies the only road to happiness and peace.

...

We are living in a wicked world where men's hearts have turned from truth to untruth, from righteousness to wickedness; we are living when men are unrighteously ambitious, seeking for power, when the liberties of the people are in danger. It behooves us as members of the Church to heed the counsels that are given by those who stand as our leaders under Jesus Christ.

We are all aware that we are in imminent danger-danger because Satan rages in the hearts of the people. This has all been predicted, and the predictions are coming true. Antichrist is gaining power, and Satan has put into the hearts of the people—the majority of them—greed, and the desire to dominate and take advantage of those who are weak.

Our duty is to keep the commandments of the Lord, to walk uprightly, to defend every principle of truth, to sustain and uphold the Constitution of this great country, to remember the Declaration of Independence, for upon these principles our country was based. They stand at the foundation, the cornerstones of the liberty that our fathers fought for, and which brought to pass, according to the word of the Lord, the redemption of this land by the shedding of blood.

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If we are living the religion which the Lord has revealed and which we have received, we do not belong to the world. We should have no part in all its foolishness. We should not partake of its sins and its errors—errors of philosophy and errors of doctrine, errors in regard to government, or whatever those errors may be—we have no part in it. The only part we have is the keeping of the commandments of God. That is all, being true to every covenant and every obligation that we have entered into and taken upon ourselves.

(President Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Steve »

Millions around the world are, as one observer put it, “angry, armed and dangerous.” In too many cities, drive-by shootings are becoming as common as drive-through laundries, and too many youngsters are packing a gun to school the way they used to pack a lunch. ...

Furthermore, many of the social and political medicines of our day regularly miss the mark, so those would-be physicians stand by the bedside of “feverish and delirious humanity—outwitted, discredited, dumbfounded … not knowing in which direction to seek delivered” (Charles Edward Jefferson, The Character of Jesus, Salt Lake City: Parliament Publishers, 1968, p. 17).

If I may be so bold this morning, may I suggest “direction for deliverance”? In words of one syllable, we need to turn to God. We need to reaffirm our faith, and we need to reassert our hope. Where necessary we need to repent, and certainly we need to pray. It is the absence of spiritual fidelity that has led us to moral disarray in the twilight of the twentieth century. ...

In a world of some discouragement, sorrow, and overmuch sin, in times when fear and despair seem to prevail, when humanity is feverish with no worldly physicians in sight, I too say, “Trust Jesus.” Let him still the tempest and ride upon the storm. Believe that he can lift mankind from its bed of affliction, in time and in eternity.

(Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Look to God and Live, October 1993 General Conference)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Steve »

We live in a complex and challenging world. Young and old seem to be going to and fro and in their own way drinking from different wells, searching for that water that will begin to feed their souls, that will quench some inner thirst.

To youth who associate themselves with various causes, some popular, many designed to accomplish much good, and a few militant; to the adult who can find no satisfaction in his vocation and perhaps only frustration in his marriage and emptiness in his life; to the militant who spends his life bitterly denouncing what he is against but never quite certain what he is for; ... —perhaps these people and many others seize upon special issues and act unpredictably more from an inner need to satisfy a yearning soul than because of the face value of that in which they are involved, however worthy it may be.

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I am reminded of two young men who came in to see me some months ago. They had been recommended by their priesthood leaders. From the moment they stepped into the office, they began in a very sincere way questioning certain doctrines and teachings and procedures of the Church. Their attitude, however, was not antagonistic, as they were sincerely looking for answers.

I asked them finally if their questions perhaps represented the symptoms of their problem and not the cause. Wasn’t their real question whether or not this church is true? Whether or not it is actually the Church of Jesus Christ? And whether or not it is led by divine revelation? The young men agreed that perhaps if they were sure of the answers to these questions, they could take care of the other questions that seemed to arise in their hearts.

(Elder Loren C. Dunn, Drink of the Pure Water, April 1971 General Conference)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

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Today we are aware of great problems in our society. The most obvious are sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, drug abuse, alcoholism, vandalism, pornography, and violence.

These grave problems are symptoms of failure in the home—the disregarding of principles and practices established by God in the very beginning.

Because parents have departed from the principles the Lord gave for happiness and success, families throughout the world are undergoing great stress and trauma. Many parents have been enticed to abandon their responsibilities in the home to seek after an elusive “self-fulfillment.” Some have abdicated parental responsibilities for pursuit of material things, unwilling to postpone personal gratification in the interest of their children’s welfare.

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The traditional family—one which has a husband, a wife not working outside the home, and children—constitutes only 14 percent of American households. (Current Population Reports, 1980.)

Nearly fifty percent of the work force is now female.

About 56 percent of these female workers are mothers with preschool children, and nearly 60 percent of them have teenagers at home.

In the United States alone it is estimated that eight to ten million youngsters, six and under, are in child-care situations outside the home.

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No society will long survive without mothers who care for their young and provide that nurturing care so essential for their normal development.

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If we continue with present trends, we can expect to have more emotionally disturbed young people, more divorce, more depression, and more suicide.

(President Ezra Taft Benson, Fundamentals of Enduring Family Relationships, October 1982 General Conference)
Updated statistics:
Labor force participation rate for women (2014): 57% of women
Labor force participation rate (2013); mothers with youngest child under 6: 63.9%
% of children (0-5) in nonrelative care (Spring 2011): 32.9%
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Ian
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Ian »

STAY, stay at home, my heart, and rest;
Home-keeping hearts are happiest,
For those that wander they know not where
Are full of trouble and full of care;
To stay at home is best.

Weary and homesick and distressed,
They wander east, they wander west,
And are baffled and beaten and blown about
By the winds of the wilderness of doubt;
To stay at home is best.

Then stay at home, my heart, and rest;
The bird is safest in its nest;
O’er all that flutter their wings and fly
A hawk is hovering in the sky;
To stay at home is best.

-- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
so let it be written... so let it be done.
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