Gun Control

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Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

Micah, what will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets?
Allow me to take on this one. One can ask you a similar question. How are you so certain that guns aren't part of the disintegration of the family?

Again, none of you are able to give evidence, scriptural or otherwise, that guns are actually good for us. You keep trying to tell us that fixing families is the only thing we can do. It absolutely is not. We can simultaneously work on building stronger families and supporting gun control. These ideas are not mutually exclusive.
Satan's rebellion does sound more and more reasonable in this light, doesn't it?
Satan's plan was remove our agency. I am trying to remove guns. People still have agency. If guns were harder to obtain (for example, made way more expensive) people could still choose to get them. But if there were barriers, then the impulse to kill (or kill ones' self) would be less likely to happen.
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

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Betsy: How are you so certain that guns aren't part of the disintegration of the family?
Again, simple. Because the prophets have told us what things are bringing about the problems we're seeing and guns were never mentioned. Now, can you please tell me what the prophets said would bring upon the citizens of the world the calamities foretold?
Betsy: Satan's plan was remove our agency. I am trying to remove guns. People still have agency.
So why are you not pursuing a ban on pornography? Or is it possible that you believe guns are more dangerous than pornography?
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Steve
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Re: Gun Control

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... Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.

(Alma 60:23)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

Now, can you please tell me what the prophets said would bring upon the citizens of the world the calamities foretold?
Sure, you already indicated that it was the disintegration of the family. I accept that. Strengthening the family is a great start. But we don't have to stop there.
So why are you not pursuing a ban on pornography? Or is it possible that you believe guns are more dangerous than pornography?
I totally support restricting pornography. Also marijuana. Oh! And Meth!
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Ian
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Ian »

Betsy wrote:Are we willing to believe the statistics discovered with real scientific means? How do we feel knowing that “for every time a household gun is used legally in self defense, there are 4 unintentional shootings, 7 assaults or murders, and 11 attempted or completed suicides by firearm" ?
i looked up this “real scientific” statistic. it’s from a 1998 publication by arthur kellermann.

kellermann, like david hemenway, was paid by the centers for disease control and prevention (the CDC) back in the 80s and 90s. kellermann and hemenway were favorite researchers of the CDC. they are obviously biased, and their result-oriented research always reaches the same conclusions, but we’re supposed to call them “scientists.”

back in the 80s and 90s, the CDC used taxpayer money to fund research to promote gun control. the research was supposedly scientific, though their stated goal was “to reduce the number of handguns in private ownership,” and virtually all of their conclusions favored stricter gun control. congress investigated, and discovered that the research was indeed biased, and was designed to “promote a campaign to reduce lawful firearms ownership in America.” legislation was passed to defund CDC gun research (though their gun research hasn’t completely stopped).

doesn’t it seem strange that the CDC was allowed to fund gun research at all? what does “disease control and prevention” have to do with guns?

kellermann was a member of one CDC-funded organization called the “handgun epidemic lowering plan,” or “HELP.” one of the founders of HELP was katherine christoffel, who stated: “Guns are a virus that must be eradicated.… They are causing an epidemic of death by gunshot, which should be treated like any epidemic – you get rid of the virus… Get rid of the guns, get rid of the bullets, and you get rid of deaths.”

this is consistent with the rhetoric we’ve heard over the past few years: guns are a “virus,” which is causing an “epidemic,” which is a “public health issue.”

why characterize gun violence in this way? for scientific credibility. kellermann and hemenway hide under the cover of “epidemiology” to promote their social, ideological and political agenda. they desperately want to make a difference in the world. they claim to be scientists, but they manipulate small and unrepresentative samples to support pre-determined conclusions while using deliberately simplistic epidemiological models and research techniques that are highly susceptible to bias.

are guns a virus? can this virus by cultivated? if i touch a gun, am i inoculated? do i become a host to the virus? does a gun in the home constitute exposure to the virus? can i be immunized? are bullets pathogens? do symptoms of this virus include the impulse to kill? is gunshot death a disease? can anyone but a public health professional cure this disease?

these are serious epidemiological questions, and only serious epidemiologists are qualified to answer them. epidemiology has a reputation for explaining diseases. kellermann and hemenway are epidemiologists. they say that we should treat guns as a virus. therefore, in deference to these eminent scientists, and in the holy name of epidemiology, we must repeal the bill of rights.
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Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

are guns a virus? can this virus by cultivated?
lol is this a joke?
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Ian
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Ian »

epidemiology is no laughing matter.
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Betsy
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

This thread is so awesome.
micah
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Re: Gun Control

Post by micah »

Ian wrote: kellermann, like david hemenway, was paid by the centers for disease control and prevention (the CDC) back in the 80s and 90s. kellermann and hemenway were favorite researchers of the CDC. they are obviously biased, and their result-oriented research always reaches the same conclusions, but we’re supposed to call them “scientists.”
Uh... Are you saying that their research should show different conclusions every time? Essentially, it seems you are saying, "they keep getting the same answers... must be biased since I don't agree with it." Usually, in science, when people keep finding the same answers it means their answers are reality. And not just them. Dozens and dozens of other researchers from a numerous academic institutes have reached the same conclusions. Most of which research not funded by the CDC (since as you point out, congress defunded them). Are you saying there is a conspiracy? That dozens and dozens of researchers are being paid off by the big, bad anti-gun lobby (who would that be exactly????).

And, by the way, this research is being published in prominent peer reviewed medical journals. I'm not saying that is perfect, but it is pretty good. This means that this research has been vetted by dozens and dozens of other scientists.

Anyway, the great thing about science is that you don't have to attack the researcher, you get to attack the research. So what is wrong with their research? Please debunk the statistics, like you said you would. I have the paper if you need a copy. It is a really good papers. I will grant to you that generalizability may be an issue, but it is a really cool paper. I am not sure how their bias would have somehow made up medical examiner reports, police reports, ER records.
Ian wrote: doesn’t it seem strange that the CDC was allowed to fund gun research at all? what does “disease control and prevention” have to do with guns?
From the CDC website, their role is:
•Detecting and responding to new and emerging health threats
•Tackling the biggest health problems causing death and disability for Americans
•Putting science and advanced technology into action to prevent disease
•Promoting healthy and safe behaviors, communities and environment
•Developing leaders and training the public health workforce, including disease detectives
•Taking the health pulse of our nation

Guns are a health threat and are involved in a huge amount of death and disability. More people die a year from firearms than from ovarian cancer, prostate cancer, HIV, liver cancer, all skin cancers, lymphoma, leukemia, tuberculosis, and a ton of other illnesses. Guns are a huge health threat, and it is the CDC's job to address this.
Ian wrote: we must repeal the bill of rights.
Why do you keep saying this? You have said this multiple times. This is not what I am asking for. Is anyone here asking to repeal the whole bill of rights? Anyone? This is a convenient straw man, however.


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Ian
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Ian »

micah wrote:Anyway, the great thing about science is that you don't have to attack the researcher, you get to attack the research.
micah wrote:And what university is John Lott affiliated with again? Oh that's right, he's a Fox News columnist. John Lott is the climate change denier of the gun control debate.
"dozens and dozens" of scientists disagree about the statistics. the statistics are wildly inconsistent. besides, what statistic would justify infringement of our rights?

ever since the CDC stopped funding gun control "research" in the 90s, big organizations with lots of money (like the joyce foundation) have stepped in to pay off their scientists. david hemenway said: "Whenever you see something interesting in research or getting people together, Joyce has played a role." that's why we always see the same few "scientists" on one side of the issue (hemenway, azrael, miller, kellermann).
micah wrote:Guns are a health threat and are involved in a huge amount of death and disability.
if you like statistics, then how do you explain that homicide in america has steadily decreased over the past few centuries (and over the past twenty years), while gun ownership has increased?
homicide.png
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Ian
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Ian »

miguel a. faria, jr., is a retired neurosurgeon and neuroscientist, and a medical historian. he graduated magna cum laude with degrees in biology and psychology from the university of south carolina, graduated with honors from the medical school of south carolina, was chief-of-staff at HCA coliseum medical centers in georgia, clinical professor of surgery and adjunct professor of medical history at mercer university school of medicine in georgia.
The Tainted Public-Health Model of Gun Control
Miguel A. Faria, Jr.
Sunday, April 01, 2001

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

—Juvenal

Early in the 1990s the American Medical Association (AMA) launched a major campaign against domestic violence, which continues to this day. As a concerned physician, neurosurgeon, and then an active member of organized medicine, I joined in what I considered a worthwhile cause.

It was then that I arrived at the unfortunate but inescapable conclusion that the integrity of science and medicine had been violated—and the public interest was not being served by the entrenched medical/public-health establishment—because of political expediency. To my consternation and great disappointment, when it came to the portrayal of firearms and violence, and the gun control “research” promulgated by public-health officials, it was obvious that the medical literature was biased, riddled with serious errors in facts, logic, and methodology, and thus utterly unreliable. Moreover, it had failed to objectively address both sides of this momentous issue, on which important public policy was being debated and formulated. And this was taking place despite the purported safeguards of peer review in the medical journals, the alleged claims of objectivity by medical editors, and the claims of impartiality by government-funded gun researchers in public health, particularly at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

Over the next five years, particularly as editor of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia, I found that on the issue of violence, medical journals skirted sound scholarship and took the easy way out of the melee, presenting only one side of the story and suppressing the other. Those with dissenting views or research were excluded. The establishment was bent on presenting guns as a social ill and promoting draconian gun control at any price.

The most prestigious medical journal, the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM), which claims openness to contrary views, is not immune to bias in this area. In fact, it is one of the most anti-gun publications in medical journalism. The NEJM routinely excludes articles that dissent from its well-known, strident, and inflexible position of gun-control advocacy. Editors have come and gone, but the governing board has made sure that the anti-gun position remains unaltered.

In “Bad Medicine—Doctors and Guns,” Don B. Kates and associates describe a particularly egregious example of editorial bias by the NEJM. In 1988, two studies were independently submitted for publication. Both authors were affiliated with the University of Washington School of Public Health. One study, by Dr. John H. Sloan and others, was a selective two-city comparison of homicide rates between Vancouver, British Columbia, and Seattle, Washington. The other paper was a comprehensive comparison study between the United States and Canada by Dr. Brandon Centerwall.

Predictably, the editors chose to publish Sloan’s article with inferior but favorable data claiming erroneously that severe gun-control policies had reduced Canadian homicides. They rejected Centerwall’s superior study showing that such policies had not lowered the rate of homicides in Canada: the Vancouver homicide rate increased 25 percent after implementation of a 1977 Canadian law. Moreover, Sloan and associates glossed over the disparate ethnic compositions of Seattle and Vancouver. When the rates of homicides for whites are compared, in both of these cities, it turns out that the rate of homicide in Seattle is actually lower than in Vancouver. The important fact that blacks and Hispanics, who constitute higher proportions of the population in Seattle, have higher rates of homicides in that city was not mentioned.

Centerwall’s paper on the comparative rates of homicides in the United States and Canada was finally published in the American Journal of Epidemiology, but his valuable research, unlike that of Sloan and his group, was not made widely available to the public. In contradistinction to his valuable gun-research data, Centerwall’s other research pointing to the effects of TV violence on homicide rates has been made widely available; his data exculpating gun availability from high homicide rates in this country remains a closely guarded secret.

Gun-Control Lobby Accomplices

Over the years, the entrenched medical/public-health establishment, acting as a willing accomplice of the gun-control lobby has conducted politicized, results-oriented gun (control) research based on what can only be characterized as junk science. This has taken place not only because of ideology and political expediency, but also because of greed—federal money. Public health in general and gun control in particular were important areas where money was allocated by the Clinton administration, along with its repeated attempts at the federalization of the police force, erosion of civil liberties, and the implementation of a national identity card, all centerpieces of former President Clinton’s failed domestic crime-control policy.

But how was an agency like the CDC able to get in the gun-control business? Simply by propounding the erroneous notion that gun violence is a public-health issue and that crime is a disease, an epidemic—rather than a major facet of criminology. The public so deluded and the bureaucrats consequently empowered, public-health and CDC officials arrogated to themselves this new area of alleged expertise and espoused the preposterous but politically lucrative concept of guns and bullets as animated, virulent pathogens needing to be stamped out by limiting gun availability and ultimately confiscating guns from law-abiding citizens. Hard to believe in a constitutional republic with a Bill of Rights and a Second Amendment! Let me cite the following statement by CDC official Dr. Patrick O’Carroll as quoted in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA, February 3, 1989): “Bringing about gun control, which itself covers a variety of activities from registration to confiscation was not the specific reason for the [CDC] section’s creation. However, the facts themselves tend to make some form of regulation seem desirable. The way we’re going to do this is to systematically build a case that owning firearms causes death.”

Public-health officials and researchers conveniently neglect the fact that guns and bullets are inanimate objects that do not follow Koch’s Postulates of Pathogenicity (a time-proven, simple, but logical series of scientific steps carried out by medical investigators to definitively prove a microorganism is pathogenic and directly responsible for causing a particular disease); and they fail to recognize the importance of individual responsibility and moral conduct—namely, that behind every shooting there is a person pulling the trigger who should be held accountable.

This portrayal of guns by the public-health establishment parallels the sensationalized reporting of violence and so-called “human interest” stories in the mainstream media; it exploits citizens’ understandable concern about domestic violence and rampant street crime, but does not reflect the accurate, un-biased, and objective information that is needed for the formulation of sound public policy. In most instances, the public-health and medical establishments have become mouthpieces for the government’s gun-control policies.

An example of biased research on which the CDC has squandered taxpayers’ money is the work of prominent gun-control researcher Dr. Arthur Kellermann of Emory University’s School of Public Health. Since at least the mid-1980s, Kellermann (and associates), whose work has been heavily funded by the CDC, has published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don’t. Despite the “peer reviewed” imprimatur of his published research, his studies, fraught with errors of facts, logic, and methodology, are published in the NEJM and JAMA with great fanfare (advance notices and press releases, followed by interviews and press conferences)—to the delight of the like-minded, cheerleading, monolithic pro-gun control medical establishment, not to mention the mainstream media.

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their “scientific research” proved that defending oneself or one’s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counterproductive, claiming “a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder.” This erroneous assertion is what Dr. Edgar Suter, chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), has accurately termed Kellermann’s “43 times fallacy” for gun ownership.

In a critical and now classic review published in the March 1994 Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Suter not only found evidence of “methodologic and conceptual errors,” such as prejudicially truncated data and non-sequitur logic, but also “overt mendacity,” including the listing of “the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors.” Moreover, the gun-control researchers “deceptively understated” the protective benefits of guns. Suter wrote: “The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected—not the burglar or rapist body count. Since only 0.1 percent-0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000.”

Greater Risk to Victims?

In 1993, in another peer-reviewed NEJM article (the research again heavily funded by the CDC), Kellermann attempted to show that guns in the home are a greater risk to the residents than to the assailants. Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Kellermann used the same flawed methodology and non-sequitur approach. He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected counties known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.

For example, 53 percent of the case subjects had a household member who had been arrested, 31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and 17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required. Moreover, the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a high incidence of financial instability. In fact, gun ownership, the supposedly high-risk factor for homicide, was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being a murder victim. Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, a history of family violence, and living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than having a gun in the home. There is no basis for applying the conclusions to the general population.

Most important, Kellermann and his associates again failed to consider the protective benefits of firearms.

In this 1993 study, they arrived at the “2.7 times fallacy.” In other words, they downsized their fallacy and claimed a family member is 2.7 times more likely to kill another family member than an intruder. Yet, a fallacy is still a fallacy and, as such, it deserves no place in scientific investigations and peer-reviewed medical publications.

Although the 1993 NEJM study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is, as Kates and associates showed, 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who didn’t live in the victims’ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.

While Kellermann and associates began with 444 cases of homicides in the home, cases were dropped from the study for a variety of reasons, and in the end, only 316 matched pairs were used, representing only 71.2 percent of the original 444 homicide cases. This reduction increased tremendously the chance for sampling bias. Analysis of why 28.8 percent of the cases were dropped would have helped indicate if the study had been compromised by the existence of such biases, but Dr. Kellermann, in an unprecedented move, refused to release his data and make it available for other researchers to analyze.

These errors invalidated the findings of the 1993 Kellermann study, just as they tainted those of 1986. Nevertheless, the errors have crept into and now permeate the lay press, the electronic media, and particularly, the medical journals, where they remain uncorrected and are repeated time and again as gospel. The media and gun-control groups still cling to the “43 times fallacy” and repeatedly invoke the erroneous mantra that “a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder.” And, because the publication of the data (and their purported conclusions) supposedly come from “reliable” sources and objective medical researchers, they are given a lot of weight and credibility by practicing physicians, social scientists (who should know better), social workers, law-enforcement officials, and particularly gun-banning politicians.

Gun Benefits

What we do know, thanks to the meticulous and sound scholarship of Professor Gary Kleck of Florida State University and DIPR, is that the benefits of gun ownership by law-abiding citizens have been greatly underestimated. In his monumental work, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America (1991), myriad articles, and his last book, Targeting Guns (1997), Kleck found that the defensive uses of firearms by citizens total 2.5 million per year and dwarf offensive gun uses by criminals. Between 25 and 75 lives are saved by a gun for every life lost to one. Medical costs saved by guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens are 15 times greater than costs incurred by criminal uses of firearms. Guns also prevent injuries to good people and protect billions of dollars of property every year.

Recent data by John R. Lott Jr. in his book More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws have also been suppressed by the mainline medical journals and public-health literature. Lott studied the FBI’s massive yearly crime statistics for all 3,054 U.S. counties over 18 years (1977-1994), the largest national survey of gun ownership and state police documentation in illegal gun use. He came to some startling conclusions:

• While neither state waiting periods nor the federal Brady Law is associated with a reduction in crime rates, adopting concealed-carry gun laws cut death rates from public multiple shootings by a whopping 69 percent.
• Allowing people to carry concealed weapons deters violent crime—without any apparent increase in accidental death. If states without right-to-carry laws had adopted them in 1992, about 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, and 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided annually.
• Children 14 to 15 years of age are 14.5 times more likely to die from automobile injuries, five times more likely to die from drowning or fire and burns, and three times more likely to die from bicycle accidents than they are to die from gun accidents.
• When concealed-carry laws went into effect in a given county, murders fell by 8 percent, rapes by 5 percent, and aggravated assaults by 7 percent.
• For each additional year concealed-carry laws are in effect, the murder rate declines by 3 percent, robberies by over 2 percent, and rape by 1 percent.

Another favorite view of the gun-control and public-health establishments is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCIPC) of the CDC. Rosenberg wrote: “Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves—ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers.”

That statement is contradicted by government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests before he finally commits murder. The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by 6 percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders. Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed law-abiding citizens.

Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities owing to gangs involved in the drug trade and hardened criminals. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns, remain low. Evidence supports the view that availability of guns per se does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbate the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. Prohibition in the 1920s and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968 brought about an increase, not a decrease, in both the rates of homicides and suicides.

A Sinister Objective

As a physician and medical historian, I have always been a staunch supporter of public health in its traditional role of fighting pestilential diseases and promoting health by educating the public on hygiene, sanitation, and preventable diseases; but I deeply resent the workings of that unrecognizable part of public health that has emerged in the last three decades with its politicized agenda, proclivity toward suppression of views with which it disagrees, and the promulgation of preordained research that is frequently tainted and result-oriented; it can only be characterized as being based on junk science.

In 1996, the U.S. House of Representatives voted to shift $2.6 million away from the NCIPC and earmark it for other health research projects. The redirected money was the amount formerly allocated to the discredited “gun (control) research.” Moreover, the House forbade the CDC from allocating further money for that research in the future. Kellermann’s gun research was for the first time defunded. Unfortunately, other gun prohibitionist researchers, like Drs. Sloan, Garen J. Wintemute, Colin Loftin, and Frederick P. Rivara, continue to publish their slanted research in the complying mainstream medical journals. They are encouraged in their work by the sponsoring schools of public health sprouting all over the country and funded by the American Medical Association (sometimes through public-private partnerships) or by the large, private statist foundations such as the Joyce Foundation.

Thus the task of separating science from politics is far from over. Much more needs to be done to return public health to its traditional role of stamping out infectious diseases and epidemics—and reeling it back from meddling in politics.
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Ian
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Ian »

micah wrote:I guess you can attack JAMA and NEJM, but they really are good journals with very high standards.
the political bias of medical journals like JAMA and NEJM is obvious. ironically, they oppose killing with guns, but they support other forms of killing, including euthanasia and abortion. most recently, the NEJM informed us that killing babies is okay because their fetal tissue can be donated to medical research (in other words, their bodies may be brought before the holy altar of "science"):
Planned Parenthood at Risk
The New England Journal of Medicine
September 3, 2015; 373:963
George P. Topulos, M.D., Michael F. Greene, M.D., and Jeffrey M. Drazen, M.D….

When women have made the decision to terminate a pregnancy, Planned Parenthood allows them the opportunity to have the fetal tissue that would otherwise be discarded be used by qualified researchers to help answer important medical questions….

We strongly support Planned Parenthood not only for its efforts to channel fetal tissue into important medical research but also for its other work as one of the country’s largest providers of health care for women….

We thank the women who made the choice to help improve the human condition through their tissue donation; we applaud the people who make this work possible and those who use these materials to advance human health….
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Edward
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Edward »

Part of the problem I see with ALL of these arguments is that people are stating categorically that the platform they support will work. Part of the struggle I think many of us are having revolves around the absolutes being thrown around. I do this habitually, so I recognize it when I see it. So, allow me to smooth the rhetoric being used here by making a few points.

First, the emotional. Although we continue to debate whether or not gun control would work, which is a worthy and important discussion, we need to stop being so zealous that we accept evidence as proof. They are not the same. Henry Hitchings made an essential point when he noted "evidence is not the same as proof, and when we speak of 'hard evidence,' we signal not absolute certainty but an impression of certainty, which we want to beef up. (This) unreasoned reasonableness ... is the attempt to pass off opinions (which may of course be valid) as facts."

We all must concede the point that, despite all the evidences available, there simply is no proof that gun control will or will not work. This discussion will be much more civil and intelligent if we will continue it with the understanding that we are really discussing what we think about the idea of controlling access to guns, based on the evidences, information, and philosophies available to us. But to try and prove one way or another is, frankly, impossible, because it has never happened and we have no way of knowing how it would happen or what would result. Evidences and theories are not proof, so let's remember that fact as we are examining what we call 'the facts.'

Second. We are getting a lot of phrases like "dozens of researchers show" or "the many studies clearly demonstrate" or "it is almost universally understood" ... et cetera. These cute little clauses may add zest and dignity to our eager posts, but they are, essentially, totally meaningless unless they are accompanied by the information to which they refer. No scientist would read a statement like that and take it seriously. He would demand to see where the information comes from, and for us to try and sound authoritative about a subject by ambiguously implying the consent of the scientific world is as presumptuous as it is pointless. Also, it ignores the fact that, just because many people agree, that doesn't make it so. Micah makes an interesting point when he says "Usually, in science, when people keep finding the same answers it means their answers are reality." But even in science there is a crucial caveat to this statement - there is always the possibility of being wrong. To say that reality is determined by the general consent of scientists repeating a controlled experiment within limited parameters defies the very principle of scientific thought. Because our knowledge of the universe is so minuscule, and because science is still only dipping its toes into the ocean of understanding existence, we have to remember that science is always changing and rewriting itself as it matures, and the list of laws science accepts as absolute is shorter than many grocery lists. The very nature of science is the idea that whatever individual fact we think we "know" could at any time be proven wrong, in order to make the whole of scientific thought more correct. For something that presently believes in the idea of evolution, it tends to be perceived as a rather unchanging or infallible source of knowledge, that if science claims it is so, then it must be. But real scientists, the ones who really get it, believe the opposite - they question everything science says, because they know that is how we start asking the questions which lead to discovery.

SO! That said, let's try this. Any time you feel like making one of those empty phrases about studies or researchers or what have you, stop, and instead, be truly scientific: show the study. Name the researchers, and quote what they say. List the reports and where they come from. Put everything you have one the table to be scrutinized and examined the way science is supposed to work. We all know now how each of us feels about gun control. Now let's actually research this, and see what we find! I am getting weary of reading about the facts and the science and the methods without seeing any of it. It makes one look very uninformed and ignorant to refer to a wealth of findings and research without ever showing them. At this point, when I read "studies have shown," I assume "this person wants to sound convincing." When somebody writes "researchers all agree" I see "you should agree with me because I feel right." Is this what you want? Of course not! You are a bastion of reason and sense. You want to show that you have the right information to make the intelligent and moral choice! Well, the only way to do that is to detach yourself from your indignation and frustration, remember that you love who you are talking to (or at least you should), and then - then, simply give the information. Post whatever you read, any studies, tests, findings, statistics, whatever it may be. I know I want to see it, being a dabbler in the sciences myself. Let's try showing the information instead of opining on it, and see what we see!

I really think this approach will be much better than what we have been cycling through. Better method, better conversation, better relationships. I hope we can all consider trying it.
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
:gandalf2:
Betsy
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

Ok so I don't know if this was clear in my past posts but I do (speaking for myself) actually value evidence based arguments, which is why I provided many citations (of actual research!) in my paper. Which happened to be a research paper. A paper of research. Not a desperate attempt to sound smart. Anyways, even though I provided many sources in my paper, there are lots more I didn't use (that's probably what Micah meant when he said "dozens and dozens" of researchers. There are actually dozens and dozens! Whether you believe it or not is up to you.) I'm not sure why "evidence" and "proof" need such a semantic distinction, when what we really are searching for is truth. And the truth is that guns are dangerous!

I understand that a good scientific theory has to be falsifiable. I understand that science is constantly seeking to disprove theories. But the question that I am mostly addressing is not so much whether or not gun control will work (although I do believe that some changes need to be made in the way guns are sold and purchased) as much as whether or not having a gun in the home is good or bad for you.

It turns out, based on real evidence (including a very good meta-analysis that has a paywall and I can't provide an internet link to, but I can GLADLY send you the PDF through e-mail!!!!!) a gun in the home is really bad for you. Guns put our personal and public safety at a pretty significant risk. Here, I will copy and paste the first part of the PDF so you know I am not making this up:
The Accessibility of Firearms and Risk for Suicide and Homicide
Victimization Among Household Members
A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis
Andrew Anglemyer, PhD, MPH; Tara Horvath, MA; and George Rutherford, MD
Background: Research suggests that access to firearms in the home increases the risk for violent death.
Purpose: To understand current estimates of the association be- tween firearm availability and suicide or homicide.
Data Sources: PubMed, EMBASE, the Cochrane Central Register of Controlled Trials, and Web of Science were searched without lim- itations and a gray-literature search was performed on 23 August 2013.
Study Selection: All study types that assessed firearm access and outcomes between participants with and without firearm access. There were no restrictions on age, sex, or country.
Data Extraction: Two authors independently extracted data into a standardized, prepiloted data extraction form.
Data Synthesis: Odds ratios (ORs) and 95% CIs were calculated, although published adjusted estimates were preferentially used. Summary effects were estimated using random- and fixed-effects models. Potential methodological reasons for differences in effects through subgroup analyses were explored. Data were pooled from 16 observational studies that assessed the odds of suicide or ho- micide, yielding pooled ORs of 3.24 (95% CI, 2.41 to 4.40) and 2.00 (CI, 1.56 to 3.02), respectively. When only studies that used interviews to determine firearm accessibility were considered, the pooled OR for suicide was 3.14 (CI, 2.29 to 4.43).
Limitations: Firearm accessibility was determined by survey inter- views in most studies; misclassification of accessibility may have occurred. Heterogeneous populations of varying risks were synthe- sized to estimate pooled odds of death.
Conclusion: Access to firearms is associated with risk for completed suicide and being the victim of homicide.
This is not "the general consent of scientists repeating a controlled experiment within limited parameters"- A meta analysis is when they gather the data from a number of studies. These studies were case-controlled, not randomized (How can you really randomize someone dying by suicide though?) which shows correlation, and it is highly likely that it's causal.
just because many people agree, that doesn't make it so.
The studies I have cited are not just a bunch of scientists agreeing on the same thing. When scientists keep finding the same results that means that their findings are replicable, which is a core tenant to the scientific method.

Again, please let me know if you would like me to send you the PDF!!

My opinion comes from objectively looking at the facts around gun violence, and being open to measures that could improve the situation, much like how laws have been made around drugs, alcohol, cars, etc.

As it has been stated, the CDC 's research funds were cut off by congress, which is a shame. A major part of my support for gun control involves gun-related research. Yet there are many so staunch in their views that they abhor the very idea of government dollars being put toward more understanding for more informed legislation. This is kindof nuts, right?

Anyways, there's already steps being made toward gun control. From the White House:https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-of ... d-make-our
You want to show that you have the right information to make the intelligent and moral choice! Well, the only way to do that is to detach yourself from your indignation and frustration, remember that you love who you are talking to (or at least you should), and then - then, simply give the information.
Not to be self-congratulating, but I honestly think I have done an ok job at this. I know Steve wanted to point at my "slightly miffed" comment as some form of indignation, :P but, really, there has been no extremity of emotion on my end (though there has been some emotion, since I am a human). Also, if I didn't love having this conversation, and the people in it, why would I keep doing it? :)

And Ian, reading Miguel Faria's paper, I have searched and searched for proof that guns are actually somehow good for us, which he makes many claims about, but never provides any actual evidence to that claim. He just wants to point out the things other studies apparently don't spend enough time talking about, and how the issue is over-politicized. He and Ben Carson should hang out!
Betsy
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Gun Control

Post by Betsy »

Oh, and also this:
if you like statistics, then how do you explain that homicide in america has steadily decreased over the past few centuries (and over the past twenty years), while gun ownership has increased?
I explain that to causes outside of gun ownership rates. The general trend of homicide has gone down, but gun owners are still going to be at a higher risk of homicide. This has been proven.

Besides, we are forgetting suicide again. Suicide by guns have definitely increased. Between 1999 and 2010 the suicide rate for US adults jumped 28%. And the rate of suicide by firearms increased for men.
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