Gun Control

[Tuly]

Thank you James and Micah for joining us. Do I perceive that some of you are saying that death itself is not the worse thing that could happen to some one but being killed is the worst thing that could happen? As far as death goes I know that all of you know the plan of salvation and know that death is part of the plan. We all accepted this plan of happiness before we came to this earth.
And I'm still against gun control.

[Betsy]

If guns are such a critical issue, why have the prophets not been speaking out against them?

Because that is not their job. They are not supposed to council on political issues. But like I said before, if you are looking for spiritual guidance on the issue, you could, maybe, consider God's commandment "Thou shalt not kill"?

By the way, just so you know, I don't read the large block quotes you post. Not because I don't believe in them, but because I believe that to be lazy rhetoric, and somewhat close to plagiarism. If you have something to say, by all means use quotes, but please use shorter ones that apply to your point and then argue your stance using your own words, not the words of literally almost everyone else.

Oh I can hear the comments now. "Betsy is just a young, dumb, uninformed whippersnapper who refuses to read quotes!"

[John]

[Prophets]are not supposed to council on political issues.

According to whom are prophets supposed to be muzzled on ANY topic? If they are God's mouthpiece on earth, according to whom is God not allowed to speak on ANY topic affecting His children? Unless, of course, God is only a mythological figure.

[Betsy]

God is not supposed to tell us what to do on several subjects; e.g., who to marry.

[John]

You will need then perhaps to reprimand Him for having done so.

[Betsy]

"I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves." - Weren't we just talking about agency a little while ago?

[Steve]

Betsy: Because that is not their job. They are not supposed to council on political issues.

I strongly recommend you review Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet by President Ezra Taft Benson.

President Boyd K. Packer: When a moral issue does arise, it is the responsibility of the leaders of the Church to speak out. Gambling, for instance, certainly is a moral issue. Life is a moral issue. When morality is involved, we have both the right and the obligation to raise a warning voice. We do not as a church speak on political issues unless morality is involved.

(Our Moral Environment, April 1992 General Conference)

Betsy: if you are looking for spiritual guidance on the issue, you could, maybe, consider God's commandment "Thou shalt not kill"?

Ahhh, now we come closer to the important distinction I already assumed was understood. "Killing" and "dying" are not the same thing at all. Killing is the most severe sin. We support legislation that would ban killing. However, dying is not the worst thing that could happen to a person.

Steve: By the way, just so you know, I don't read the large block quotes you post. ... lazy rhetoric ... plagiarism ... argue your stance using your own words

"Who hath ears to hear, let him hear (Matthew 13:9)." If you don't read them, I'm afraid that's your loss. It does make me sad that you value my words more than the prophets'.

Jeremiah 7:26-28:
26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.

27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.

28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the Lord their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

3 Nephi 28:34:
And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

Alma 5:37:
O ye workers of iniquity; ye that are puffed up in the vain things of the world, ye that have professed to have known the ways of righteousness nevertheless have gone astray, as sheep having no shepherd, notwithstanding a shepherd hath called after you and is still calling after you, but ye will not hearken unto his voice!

[John]

I still want to know on what authority the claim is made that prophets "are not supposed" to counsel on political issues.

[Ian]

it's a funny claim, coming from a mormon. book of mormon prophets wrote extensively about government and politics, and many book of mormon prophets were political leaders.

[Betsy]

Pretty sure the prophets never told us who to vote for in the last presidential election, and I'm all pretty sure this was not a coincidence. And yes, they did tell us to vote, just like they tell us to find a suitable mate to marry. But they cannot micromanage in every decision. That goes against agency and logic.

[Ian]

our constitution isn’t on the ballot.

this is a marvelous document. it endures, despite relentless attack from our blatant friends. to them, the constitution is a roadblock. it hinders progress. it stands in their way. they can’t get around it. so they cry out in frustration, “let’s amend it!”

of course they argue that the constitution is unclear. they want to interpret the constitution to shreds. if everyone has a different interpretation, then it means nothing.

the constitution is crystal clear. its meaning is plain. it protects our liberty. they know this. so, they attack it.

[Betsy]

So, you think we should still have slaves?

[Edward]

Now the only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through His prophet, “as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; … as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith” (D&C 21:4–5). There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord Himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory” (D&C 21:6)

To you Latter-day Saints everywhere, that promise [in D&C 21:4–6] will be yours if you will follow the leadership the Lord has placed within the Church, giving heed to their counsel in patience and faith.

Look to the President of the Church for your instructions. If ever there is a conflict, you keep your eyes on the President if you want to walk in the light.

If our people want to be safely guided during these [troubled] times of deceit and false rumors, they must follow their leaders and seek for the guidance of the Spirit of the Lord in order to avoid falling prey to clever manipulators who, with cunning sophistry, seek to draw attention and gain a following to serve their own notions and sometimes sinister motives.

... When we cannot accept those who represent Him here, it would not be a bit easier to accept the Master Himself, were He to appear.

Teachings of President Harold B. Lee my own emphasis added

[Edward]

So, you think we should still have slaves?

Do you seriously think that one point is enough to discount everything in the Constitution, and everything the prophets have said? Get off your moral high-horse. You act like you know better than the people who wrote it, and frankly I am not sure you do, and the prophets who endorse it, which I know you do not.

[Edward]

Not only that, but having guns is nothing like slaves. The people in the Book of Mormon always had weapons; Nephi himself was the first to teach them how to make weapons to defend themselves. But slavery was never tolerated. That is apples and oranges, and logically it is ridiculous to compare slavery to defending oneself. THAT is a logical fallacy if ever I saw one.