Gun Control

[Steve]

Betsy: Nope.

Can you please point to the specific statement of mine that you believe is false, or that you reject with your one-word reply? Was it one of the scriptures? Or something else? I am curious to know what specifically you disagreed with.

Furthermore, I would like to know which portion of the editorial essay you posted supports your gun control initiative. I am not seeing it, and it would be helpful to have you explain a little so I can understand where you and I continue to disagree.

[Ian]

from that essay: "Citizenship refers to the obligation of Church members to fulfill their duties to their nations and communities in lawful ways that are consistent with 'their inherent and inalienable rights' (D&C 134:5)."

besty's agenda is inconsistent with our inherent and inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

[Steve]

Ian, my thoughts exactly.

[Edward]

I have more proof that our current legal system around guns is failing, and that gun restriction could work, than you can provide proof that our current system is "working" and that we are somehow more safe by having more guns.


Define "deranged". I want as much information on this as you can give, please. Thanks.


Are you saying all the news stories about people getting shot are just exaggerated stories told by the news to promote fear? If you do, then this is exactly the kind of misinformation I am working hard to combat.


My agenda is change.

I will deal with these points individually since that is the mode of discourse you chose to take (but I don't ever want to hear you criticize Steve for doing this again!). First of all, you are constantly throwing out this story about your proofs and facts and whatnot. Well, I frankly do not believe you have any proof at all. You have touted these proofs for who knows how long now, and have yet to yield anything definitively conclusive. There is no such evidence, and I would dare you to try and produce it. Proof is irrefutable. You have nothing so conclusive as proof. And by the way, can you show me in which post I said our system is working and that we are safe by having 'more guns?' Oh, that's right, you can't, because you made up that assumption and put the words in my mouth. Tsk tsk.

Now, you want me to define deranged so that you can go into a lengthy discussion on the psychological definition and what defines a stable versus and unstable mind, and take my word down a long tangent that will distract from my point, but frankly, YOU are not a psychiatrist, and marrying one does not count. Are you genuinely asking me to teach you about the term, or hoping you can use what I say to catch me on some terminology? No, you don't want information. You want ammunition, and I am not playing into this one.

And once again, you are reading my words in a way that doesn't make sense. I am a good enough writer to know that my words can stand on their own without carrying 'hidden' or 'underlying' messages. Case in point, you add the word "exaggerated," which twists my statements to create the illusion that I disbelieve them. But if you read my words instead of trying to decipher them, you see that my point is that we don't need to raise awareness because we are already overwhelmed with awareness. The media does indeed promote an irrational sense of fear these days, but they don't have to exaggerate to do it. So, no, obviously I am not saying the news stories are exaggerated, because, well, I never said that. You did, and then you claimed that I said it. But that would be a falsification on your part, and so the misinformation you are combating is thus your own creation. Why not combat it by not generating it? Because if you read my words, you see that my concern is not about exaggerated stories or misinformation. It seems the misinformation you are fighting is coming from your consistent misreading of what people like me are saying.

And as for your agenda, change is great and cute and looks great on t-shirts and novelty mugs, but change is not inherently good or evil. You want change? That doesn't tell me anything. What do you want to change? And is your idea of change best for everybody, or is it what best fits your personal idea of the ideal society? Change is not an agenda. Change is simply a fact. The question is, what are the changes you expect others to make?

[Edward]

Nope.

https://www.lds.org/topics/citizenship?lang=eng

Latter-day Saints are encouraged to be informed and participate in civic and political activities, ... etc. etc. etc.

I just bring this up to point out that Steve is not wrong Betsy, and both of your points go hand in hand. You basically just said Nope to Steve's post about keeping the commandments and following the Lord's way, plus a few scriptures to boot, which I am sure was unintentional, but don't be so hasty to defend your own point that you shoot down what others say without realizing what you are actually saying. You should read what people post more carefully so that you don't misinterpret their words or contradict things that are true. Steve's post which you so flatly contradict is doctrinally sound. Just because you have more to add, does not deny the fact that he is, also, right.

I do want to add, however, that I feel just as concerned and alarmed by the violence in our nation as you do, and that I also feel we must make drastic and immediate changes to counter its increase. Like you I have seen and experienced frightening incidents that make me only too aware of how dangerous the world can be, and I am sure that I am even more terrified of firearms than you are. I have lived my life in fear of them. But my faith in both the gospel and in humanity is stronger than those fears, and I have learned not to let fear overwhelm clear thinking. So while I feel the same things you feel about the awful state of affairs, I have different ideas about how they can be resolved. That at least gives us a common ground of motives, which should remain clear I hope as we differ on how best to move forward.

[Betsy]

but frankly, YOU are not a psychiatrist, and marrying one does not count.

Haha. It actually counts for quite a lot. But not in the way you think. I am baffled as to why my family has completely robbed me of any license to discuss the topic AT ALL. Oh well. I shall press forward with nary a care - y!

Anyways, now that I have successfully put bees in all your bonnets, I am off to Seattle. Later!

[Steve]

Betsy: I shall press forward with nary a care - y!

[Edward]

but frankly, YOU are not a psychiatrist, and marrying one does not count.

Haha. It actually counts for quite a lot. But not in the way you think. I am baffled as to why my family has completely robbed me of any license to discuss the topic AT ALL. Oh well. I shall press forward with nary a care - y!

Anyways, now that I have successfully put bees in all your bonnets, I am off to Seattle. Later!

Mercy Betsy, what are these scenarios you keep creating? Honestly. Your family has completely ROBBED YOU? Oh no! We broke in and stole your license to speak, and not just a few of us, but YOUR WHOLE FAMILY! Every last one of them, Lily and Emma and Abby and Hyrum, even little Pippa and Eliza are in on it - we have taken away your power to speak of this thing! The treachery! The betrayal! The OVER-DRAMATIZATION, for pete's sake. If you mean that specific people brush off your comments about psychiatry, fine. But to say your FAMILY has wronged you - come on. Your point isn't made stronger by reckless hyperbole and generalizations.

The issue I have with it is that, well, you are not a psychiatrist, nor are you trained in the science, but you tend to throw out terminology and lingo without having the education necessary to fully understand them or apply them in proper context. It comes off as psychology more than psychiatry, which I am less trusting of. So you'll excuse me if I don't regard your psychological conclusions with complete accord. I do respect Micah's knowledge on the subject however, if that's any comfort to you.

And as for putting bees in bonnets, well, that would suggest that somehow we worry about what you say enough to lose sleep over it. Or maybe that you like provoking people. Either way, I like bees, and would be happy to share my bonnet with them.

[Steve]

Peace of mind, peace of conscience, and peace of heart are not determined by our ability to avoid trials, sorrow, or heartache. Despite our sincere pleas, not every storm will change course, not every infirmity will be healed, and we may not fully understand every doctrine, principle, or practice taught by prophets, seers, and revelators. Nevertheless, we have been promised peace...

Our commitment to the Lord and His servants cannot be a part-time commitment. If so, we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who seek to destroy our peace. As we listen to the Lord through His authorized servants, we stand in holy places and cannot be moved.

The adversary offers counterfeit solutions that may appear to provide answers but take us even further from the peace we seek. He offers a mirage that has the appearance of legitimacy and safety but ultimately, like the great and spacious building, will collapse, destroying all who seek peace within its walls.

Truth is found in the simplicity of a Primary song: “Words of a prophet: Keep the commandments. In this there is safety and peace.”

(Bishop W. Christopher Waddell, A Pattern for Peace, April 2016 General Conference) ↗

[Betsy]

I've been hearing from several siblings about my discussing of mental health, and I would like to be candid and address this, as directly and succinctly as possible. Read the following carefully, as it is important. All I have to say is, even though Micah is a professional in the field, I do have a good amount of knowledge about what he does, not simply by virtue of being married to him, but by purposefully learning as much from him (and from books and other resources) as I can - since it is intrinsically interesting and helpful for my own dealings with other people. For anyone to brush my comments aside for taking up the issue shows a great deal of defensiveness and immaturity. Also, to say that you are less trusting of psychology than psychiatry shows a lack of understanding on what these disciplines are. I would not use a psychological term unless I understood what it was and if it was in the correct context. One does not need an MD to understand a term or use it correctly. I understand that it would not be appropriate to treat anybody for mental illness, as I am well aware of all of my limitations. I make note of them frequently in discussions with others. Yet many trust me enough to know that there is a natural insight gained by spending a great deal of time with a professional. Let me say this without seeming childish or neurotic (though I doubt those reading will grant me this): I am not dumb. Remember we all share the same genes (i guess except for in-laws). I do not even dare to ask that you trust me with my thoughts on mental illness. But I feel it is appropriate to ask that you be permissive of the fact that we discuss the topic frequently in our home, and that I wish to be useful in imparting knowledge that I have gained in the process.

Next, Steve enjoys implying that my life is a failure or somehow less happy than his because of the opinions I harbor toward gun control. However, he has no real evidence that this is the case, nor will he ever be able to present such evidence. It is highly inappropriate and damaging to make such sweeping judgement over me, in order to make a political point. My thought remains, however, that I do not care at all what you think, because I know with absolute certainty that you have no idea what you are talking about, in regards to my happiness and success in life.

Anyways, now that I've covered those issues, I'd like to return to the topic. President Obama shared a great answer to a question that many people have about guns in America.



Link

[Ian]

micah is professional, and betsy is happy and successful. therefore, the second amendment to the constitution should be repealed.

[Steve]

Betsy: Next, Steve enjoys implying that my life is a failure or somehow less happy than his because of the opinions I harbor toward gun control.

Hmm, so why do you think I even engage in this discussion at all? No really. Why?

And why do you think I spend most of my time quoting prophets on these topics? Recently, you claim it's simply so I can indulge myself in plagiarism (because I have no thoughts of my own) and because I enjoy criticizing you. Neither is correct. As I've explained before, it's so that I can simply present things as they really are without being diluted by my own interpretation. I let the Lord's words speak for themselves and you'll receive them as needed for your present position.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.

2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

4 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.

(1 Nephi 16:1-4) ↗

Betsy: It is highly inappropriate and damaging to make such sweeping judgement over me, in order to make a political point. My thought remains, however, that I do not care at all what you think, because I know with absolute certainty that you have no idea what you are talking about, in regards to my happiness and success in life.

A political point? I couldn't care any less about politics, to be perfectly honest. I appreciate government, but I am not particularly interested in discussing politics with people just for fun.

You don't care at all what I think, and you know with absolute certainty that I have no idea what I am talking about? I'm actually ok with that—don't listen to me then. Pursue all the gun measures you can and watch what happens. Put it to the test. Try to ignore the prophetic statements and counsel we've shared and see if the world gets demonstrably better as a result. I'm not sure how long you intend, or are willing, to conduct your experiment, but when you're finally through with your reliance on your own way (2 Nephi 4:34), I invite you to remember this very long conversation and to consider a more excellent way (Ether 12:11).

[Betsy]

Even though Ian's statement is blatantly illogical, there is nothing inherently wrong about each individual axiom.

[Betsy]

Ok Steve, with your permission I will more effectively ignore all of your posts. They don't relate to the topic anyways.

[Steve]

Betsy: Ok Steve, with your permission I will more effectively ignore all of your posts. They don't relate to the topic anyways.

I'm sorry to hear you take this tone—that doesn't sound like a "happy, successful" person talking. Still, it is your choice. Just know that I'll be around if you ever change your mind.