Gun Control

[Betsy]

That's cool if you're not on Facebook. I was just wondering.

I'm afraid your quotes are still a little too long. I'm more interested in what YOU have to say, Steve. And let's be honest, if I read those quotes, the only way I'm allowed to interpret them is if that interpretation aligns with your viewpoint, right? Also, you don't have the holy authority to tell me that the Holy Ghost will affirm to me that I am wrong. Even my own mother's opinions don't dictate mine. I highly respect her, her opinions, and for raising me in the church, but I don't agree with her politics.

[Steve]

Betsy: Your view is so narrowly focused on the constitution that you fail to recognize the broad, emergent problem.

Is it possible that you are so narrowly focused on the "emergent problem" that you fail to recognize the Constitution?

Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States.

(President David O. McKay, The Instructor, Vol. 93, 1956, p. 94)

The Prophet Joseph Smith, while suffering unjustly at the hands of officials who had sworn to uphold and defend the sacred principles of the Constitution, and who had violated their oath in the vilest manner, and who heaped upon him and his companions in tribulation cruelties which only fiends could inflict, wrote to the Saints to defend and sustain the constitutional law of the land and to be loyal to the fundamental principles of our government.

(President Joseph Fielding Smith, Progress of Man, ch. 29)

We say that God is true; that the Constitution of the United States is true; that the Bible is true; that the Book of Mormon is true; that the Book of Covenants is true; and that Christ is true.

(Joseph Smith, History of the Church 3:304.)

It was through and by the power of God, that the fathers of this country framed the Declaration of Independence, and also that great palladium of human rights, the Constitution of the United States. There is nothing of a bigoted, narrow-contracted feeling about that instrument, it is broad and comprehensive.

(President John Taylor, Liahona 12:644)

I hope with all my soul that the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be loyal in their very hearts and souls to the principles of the Constitution of our country. From them we have derived the liberty that we enjoy. They have been the means of guaranteeing to the foreigner that has come within our gates, and to the native born, and to all the citizens of this country, the freedom and liberty that we possess. We cannot go back upon such principles as these. We may go back upon those who fail to execute the law as they should. We may be dissatisfied with the decision of judges, and may desire to have them removed out of their places. But the law provides ways and means for all these things to be done under the Constitution of our country, and it is better for us to abide the evils that we have than to fly to greater evils that we know not what the result will be. ...

These principles that I propose to read to you are the foundation and basic principles of the Constitution of our country, and are eternal, enduring forevermore, and cannot be changed or ignored with impunity. ...

We cannot tolerate the sentiment at one time expressed by a man high in authority in the nation. He said: "The Constitution be damned; the popular sentiment of the people is the constitution." That is the sentiment of anarchism that has spread to a certain extent, and is spreading over the land of liberty and home of the brave. We do not tolerate it. Latter-day Saints cannot tolerate such a spirit as this. It is anarchy. It means destruction. It is the spirit of mobocracy, and the Lord knows we have suffered enough from mobocracy, and we do not want any more of it.

(President Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1912)

Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.

(D&C 109:54; emphasis added) ↗

[Steve]

Betsy: I'm afraid your quotes are still a little too long.

How is it that you can read huge chunks of commentary and Facebook posts, books on gun control and just about anything else, but will not read my response to your argument? Why is it only "too long" when a prophet says it?

Betsy: I'm more interested in what YOU have to say, Steve.

This is what I have to say, Betsy.

Betsy: Also, you don't have the holy authority to tell me that the Holy Ghost will affirm to me that I am wrong.

Where did I say that? Can you please point me to the quote?

[Betsy]

I promise I read the prophets words on a regular basis. But in this discussion, I want to hear what YOU have to say. On Facebook, and papers, and research articles, it's generally accepted that using quotes is okay, but on a limited basis. I know you mean well, Steve, and you really don't have to acquiesce to my request, just know that I value originality of thought in this discussion.

[Steve]

Betsy: I value originality of thought in this discussion.

I value truth. I'm afraid this is where we part ways in our take on life, Betsy. You don't really want to hear what I have to say because you don't really appreciate or understand my values and priorities. My priority is to be like the psalmist, cherishing the Lord's truth over foolish and vain philosophies of men.

125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.

126 It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law.

127 Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.

128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

129 Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them.

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

(Psalms 119:125-130) ↗

You say I can only use God's words "on a limited basis." Consequently, your objective is neither truth nor to understand my position.

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

(Proverbs 1:29-33) ↗

8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord:

10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.

(Isaiah 30:8-13) ↗

For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words—they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

(1 Nephi 19:7) ↗

25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.

26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.

27 But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.

28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.

29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?

30 Yea, behold, the anger of the Lord is already kindled against you; behold, he hath cursed the land because of your iniquity.

(Helaman 13:25-30) ↗

And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

(3 Nephi 28:34) ↗

And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby, and stumble and fall when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.

(D&C 90:5) ↗

--

Betsy: I've actually provided plenty of evidence, you just refuse to acknowledge it.

I feel your pain.

[Betsy]

I'm afraid this is where we part ways in our take on life, Betsy.

Ok! Life goes on, I still care about you, and I'm willing to talk about this any time, on any forum. Let it be known that I am never one to sever ties with a person even when we have fundamental differences.

I feel your pain.

It's not really painful for me! I'm optimistic for change, since that is what I believe America's legacy is truly founded upon, and what many of my compatriots continue to fight for. I will vote for what I will vote for, you will vote for what you vote for. I will write what I write to my representatives, you will write what you write to...whomever. We are all brothers and sisters.

[Steve]

Betsy: I'm willing to talk about this any time, on any forum.

...but not listen.

Betsy: We are all brothers and sisters.

...which is why it's so painful for me to see you dismiss these things.

13 Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old.

14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

(Jacob 4:13-14) ↗

I conclude my participation in the "gun control" thread with the words of the prophet Moroni:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

(Moroni 10:3-5) ↗

[Tuly]

So we agree to disagree, Betsy? and please don't categorize me because I'm against gun control that "people's lives matter less than my guns" - I'm your mother after all, and you matter more to me than the gun I don't have.

Steve, hopefully you will be back soon to this thread, because it has been foretold that there will be more violence in the very near future.

[Betsy]

...but not listen.

I'm listening, oh I am! I am just not agreeing. I know you are listening to me, even though you don't agree with me. We must give each other more credit than that.

Yes, we do agree to disagree! I should speak for myself. I agree to disagree. But that doesn't mean the conversation has to end there. I know you all think I am the devil or something, but I cannot deny my feelings on this subject. America has done a lot to become the country it is, but we still have lots of work to do. Government's delicate balance hangs on the voices of the people, and I am making my voice heard, whether members of my family like it or not.

[Ian]

betsy deserves a lot of credit. this discussion has been very productive. thanks to betsy, our family is much more firmly opposed to gun control than ever before. you have made a difference, and for that i thank you.

[Betsy]

I don't think there has been a single discussion on this forum where anyone's viewpoint was changed, but that is not my goal. My goal is for us to think critically about what we believe, what needs to be done, and how to make society better. Not just drop large block quotes of what others believe, expecting that to do the work for us.

[Ian]

actually, this discussion has made a difference. some people have become opposed to gun control. i am more opposed to gun control than i was a few months ago. thanks again betsy.

[Betsy]

some people have become opposed to gun control.

Oh yah? Who?

[Lily]

Oh yah? Who?

Me! I was pretty ambivalent before, but this has helped clarify some things for me.

As far as I'm aware, California had some of the strictest gun laws before this week's shootings. I wonder if these wicked people had a Dangerous Weapons Permit/License? I'm really not throwing my hat in this ring of discussion, but am grateful to those who have done so much to educate themselves on this topic, and that I can now review what's been written.

Thanks, everyone!

[John]

I have been very much changed in my opinion. And I have several block quotes from authoritative sources to thank for it. I am grateful for deference paid to better, wiser men than myself to articulate wisdom and truth for my benefit and learning.

I have had my opinion and understanding greatly altered.