inequality

[James]

https://vimeo.com/92308666

One of my former professors argued that the Book of Mormon is a reversed liberation theology; a warning to the rich. Problems in society came when "they began to be divided into classes"

Some Kabbalah sages have argued that sodom and Gomorrah fell because of separation into classes. "What's mine is mine and whats yours is yours"

[Steve]

Perhaps, but it is not the government's role to forcefully treat those ills. It is up to the citizens, of their own free will and choice.

[John]

I don't view myself as being in a different class than people who have more or less money than I do. I hear a lot of proud pundits who try to insist that I am. I begrudge no one their prosperity. I read in the Book of Mormon that the Lord delights to prosper his people.

[Ian]

bill moyers... kabbalah sages... these are men of great wisdom, we should heed their counsel.

[James]

I just heard of some research suggesting the neighborhood you grow up in is an even more significant factor than previously thought. One of my favorite things about LA area is a feeling of camaraderie. Despite being the land of freeways public transportation in LA county is actually pretty good. my childhood friend living in san jose, and my family in SF reports from the bay area that things are more stratified and obvious up there.

But I am talking about the super rich, a class of people who, because of what they own, have a lot of power.

[Ian]

i've spent time in los angeles. i can think of few worse places in the united states to raise a child.

[James]

Which Vermonter, Bernie or Brigham?

Can you discern which of the quotes below are attributed to Brigham Young and which are attributed to Bernie Sanders?

“Some of our legislators would vote down every particle of tax, if they had the power. Are they conscientious in this? Yes. But are they wise? No. They have no wisdom on this subject; they do not understand national affairs.”

“Money is not real capital. It bears the title only. True capital is labor, and is confined to the laboring classes.”

“The course pursued by men of business in the world has a tendency to make a few rich, and to sink the masses of the people in poverty and degradation… No matter what comes they are for gain—for gathering around them riches.”

“It has been supposed that wealth gives power. In a depraved state of society, in a certain sense it does, if opening a wide field for unrighteous monopolies, by which the poor are robbed and oppressed and the wealthy are more enriched, is power. In a depraved state of society money can buy positions and titles, can cover up a multitude of incapabilities, can open wide the gates of fashionable society to the lowest and most depraved of human beings; it divides society into castes without any reference to goodness, virtue or truth. It is made to pander to the most brutal passions of the human soul; it is made to subvert every wholesome law of God and man, and to trample down every sacred bond that should tie society together in a national, municipal, domestic, and every other relationship.”

"One of the great evils with which our own nation is menaced at the present time is the wonderful growth of wealth in the hands of a comparatively few individuals. The very liberties for which our fathers contended so steadfastly and courageously, and which they bequeathed to us as a priceless legacy, are endangered by the monstrous power which this accumulation of wealth gives to a few individuals and a few powerful corporations."

"The experience of mankind has shown that the people of communities and nations among whom wealth is the most equally distributed, enjoy the largest degree of liberty, are the least exposed to tyranny and oppression and suffer the least from luxurious habits which beget vice."

“The earth is here, and the fullness thereof is here… one man was not made to trample his fellow man under his feet, and enjoy all his heart desires, while the thousands suffer. We will take a moral view, a political view, and we see the inequality that exists in the human family.”

“Who [are the working poor] laboring for? For those who, many of them, are living in luxury. And, to serve the classes that are living on them, the poor, laboring men and women are toiling, working their lives out to earn that which will keep a little life within them. Is this equality? No! What is going to be done?… we are to revolutionize the world.”

“It is our business to elevate the beggar and not keep him in ignorance… give them the same opportunity that you possess to become independent and self-sustaining, and endow them with all the wisdom and knowledge that they are capable of receiving, and let them increase with you and unitedly grow and become strong.”

[Ian]

that was copied from an anti-mormon facebook page called "progressive mormon teachings."

[John]

...and is a cherry-picking of quotations that distorts the spirit of Brigham Young's and the church's teachings on the subject.

Consider the following from further reading of the same discourse:

Is there any lack of gold or silver here? These are matters I wish you to understand. How can you understand them in the kingdom of God? You cannot only through the light of revelation, just as you see anything else in truth and with the Spirit of truth, by which means only can you discern truth from error. I want you to learn by the Spirit of truth. There are a good many legislators here, and I want them to go home with these instructions, and put in practice some things they already understand. They are active men, men of wisdom, men of ability and good judgment, men of strong minds; and yet in some things they are more ignorant than children ought to be. The gold is not yours, nor the silver, nor the cattle that roam over these hills and plains; neither are they mine. They are put in our possession, but they belong to Him who owns the whole of them. All we want is the ability to convert them to our own benefit. There is no lack. Has there been a lack of money here? Some of the legislators have been opposed to taxation. I have a right to talk about these things, though I am not Governor, and do not sign nor veto bills passed by the Assembly. I ask [p. 343b]again, Is there any lack of money? I will propound one other question—“Will five hundred thousand dollars cover the amount that has been paid by this people to the merchants during last year?” I presume not, though if you had the statistics before you, you would probably find this sum to be not far from the amount. Since 1849, we have probably paid to them at the rate of nearly a million of dollars each year. Is there any scarcity of money? No. Are you fearful that one man is going to get all the gold in the world and sift it to the four winds, so that it never can be gathered? You need have no such fear, for it cannot be destroyed. Are you fearful that all the silver is going to be destroyed, so that we cannot have it? Such fears are groundless, for you cannot destroy a particle of it. What is the difficulty? A want of judgment—a want of true knowledge pertaining to the earth and to the heavens, to the elements and their organization—a want of the power to master the elements, to handle them advantageously and make them useful, and devote them to our own comfort and happiness.
I frequently take the liberty to teach economy to the people. This is natural to me; it agrees with my feelings, experience, and faith. I do not know that during thirty years past I have worn a coat, hat, or garment of any kind, or owned a horse, carriage, &c., but what I asked the Lord whether I deserved it or not—Shall I use this? Is it mine to use, or not? If I had my will satisfied, I would not use a farthing's worth of anything without its being put to the best use my judgment could dictate, increasing and multiplying it, and bringing forth those things that make men comfortable and happy, using my means in the fear of the Lord for the building up of his kingdom and glory upon the earth. My experience [p. 344a]is that this people have too great a tenacity for the goods of this world, and the Enemy thinks he can get the advantage over them in this respect, and he is improving the time.

I don't feel oppressed by the one percent. Not one of them is responsible for my prosperity or lack thereof. The earth is full and there is enough and to spare. I am not "entitled" to any of their money, whether ill gotten or well gotten. The current fixation on THEIR wealth seems to me to be a self-centered lack of gratitude for what the Lord is able to offer us. Such a fixation is still a focus on money, power, greed, acquisition, and gain. What about seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness?

[Steve]

Indeed—good catch, Ian. It would be more meaningful if such passages were discovered by the honest pursuits of the individual as opposed to copying and pasting the collected bias of a social media author. This would help ensure that we are getting healthy exposure to the full work which would certainly ward off the ill-designed agendas of a few ignorant souls.

Consider also that we believe in continuing revelation.

We believe and rejoice in continuing revelation. There have been occasions in Church history when one prophet has clarified previous prophetic counsel or identified teachings or practices once widely accepted that were later in need of change. For instance, in the early years of the Church, members were encouraged to gather to one central location, such as Kirtland, Ohio, or Jackson County, Missouri. Today, Church members are encouraged to gather in their local stakes or districts.

(Lesson 9: Follow the Living Prophet, Foundations of the Restoration Teacher Manual, 2015) ↗

We have received a large amount of focused clarification on the topic of socialism and government welfare programs. As we learned in General Conference today, we can and should trust our leaders and give heed to the word of the Lord through them. This will help us to avoid erroneous thinking. (Review Elder Rasband's remarks for further details).

I also agree with Dad. Not one of us will be forsaken if we will obey the Lord. Those of us who may be struggling in our faith, who may be fearful that things will go "wrong" for us unless we can secure our positions with government initiatives, should study the topic diligently and pursue greater faith. The Lord will bless you in all needful things if you will give heed to Him.

[John]

Yes. If I perceive that my prosperity is lacking, perhaps it has more to do with what I am or am not doing than with what the "one percent" is doing or not doing.

But if I perceive that my prosperity is lacking, am I ignoring or disdaining what the Lord is doing?

[Steve]

When obeying the Lord, any poverty or prosperity that comes my way is His blessing. I should be grateful for both, not assuming, as many do, that financial prosperity alone is the sure signal of God's love for us. It is often the tangible evidence of another trial.

[John]

Hebrews 13:5
“Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”

From 1 Timothy:
"1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

The love of money is not exclusive to the rich, but includes those who "will be" (WANT to be) rich.

Here's another juicy morsel from 1 Timothy 20, 21:

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith..."

[John]

Another thought in response to:

“It is our business to elevate the beggar and not keep him in ignorance… give them the same opportunity that you possess to become independent and self-sustaining, and endow them with all the wisdom and knowledge that they are capable of receiving, and let them increase with you and unitedly grow and become strong.”

note that the author refers to it as OUR business, not the GOVERNMENT'S business. And it seems that he is speaking to ME, and not just to the one percent. Am I "giving the poor the same opportunity" that [I[ possess to become independent and self-sustaining? Am I letting them increase with me and unitedly growing and becoming strong? Are handouts the way to "give them the same opportunity ... to become independent and self-sustaining?

hmmm... just thinking.

[James]

"note that the author refers to it as OUR business, not the GOVERNMENT'S business." John
We are the government.
Progressives and conservatives can both take a very proactive approach to civic affairs and may choose to be very involved, whether there are social programs to help curb inequality or not.

"And it seems that he is speaking to ME, and not just to the one percent." John
Yeah, we should all play our part.

"Are handouts the way to "give them the same opportunity ... to become independent and self-sustaining?" John
The conservative side often uses the term "handouts" to put a negative feeling on social programs.
"calling universal health care and public education free stuff is the same as calling a navy aircraft carrier a free ship"
What's more, corporate welfare, wall street bail outs, oil wars- that's free stuff for billionaires. Aside from not liking the upward redistribution of wealth brought on by neoliberalism, I take a pragmatic approach to certain "handouts." Universal healthcare systems just work better. Why not choose the thing that works better?

"I don't feel oppressed by the one percent." John
"I don't view myself as being in a different class than people who have more or less money than I do" John


"This country has socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor" MLK

"Perhaps, but it is not the government's role to forcefully treat those ills. It is up to the citizens, of their own free will and choice." Steve

I agree with my friend David Lassiter, a very politically conservative gentleman, that economic inequality is one of the greatest problems facing our country right now. Because it is such a huge problem I believe it is a problem that is allowed into the political arena. The response to it needs to be organized and strong. The government is one of the things that can help us be organized and strong in dealing with this. Plus, the neoliberal movement didn't happen free of government.

Conversations such as this one remind me of a book John and Tuly gifted to Margaret and I, called The Overworked American. Included in it are parallels to Pickneys book and Moyers presentation. One of the results of record inequality is the overworked american. The book compares modern life to various times in the past, including middle ages. I take it a step further to hunter gatherer societies. Hunter gatherers, largely egalitarian economically, were self-sustaining. They also had significantly more leisure time, time for cultural enrichment, than most americans have now.

I think Brigham Young brought many thoughts to Mormonism, including some that are a bit leftist. When I bring them up they are swiftly muscled out, which is sad to me.
But that's the correlation movement and the routinization of charismatic authority has done to Mormonism.

"they began to be divided into classes"