When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

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Steve
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

Post by Steve »

Betsy: Ian demonstrates perfect misunderstanding of President Oaks talk.
When it comes to a mature knowledge or testimony of the truth, we should not be dependent on a mortal mediator between us and our Heavenly Father.
I don't think it's Ian's misunderstanding on display. Betsy, you are treating the testimony of the truth as if it were going to be completely distinct when applied to the personal line and to the priesthood line. These two lines are simply multiple ways of confirming the same exact thing, not as two opposing forces or philosophies. If you do not trust the priesthood line, it is up to you to use the personal line to regain that trust. If you do not trust the personal line, you can give heed to the prophets and confirm their truths for yourself. The Lord will not contradict Himself through these lines.
Betsy: Well this is getting weird.
How so? We both believe opposite things. If you believe you are right, then you believe I am wrong. If I am wrong, I am not heeding the Lord. Therefore, I am moving toward apostasy. There's nothing weird about that. It does help to put this conversation into proper perspective, though, doesn't it?
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

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If you do not trust the personal line, you can give heed to the prophets and confirm their truths for yourself.
How can you confirm their truths for yourself if you do not trust the personal line?!?!?!
If I am wrong, I am not heeding the Lord. Therefore, I am moving toward apostasy. There's nothing weird about that.
I think it is super weird, nonsensical, illogical, and totally throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Ugh I am so glad I do not espouse such black and white thinking! I would be so anxious all the time!
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Steve
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

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Betsy: How can you confirm their truths for yourself if you do not trust the personal line?!?!?!
This is a great question. I recommend reading Alma 32. Moroni 10 would also help you with your question.
Betsy: Ugh I am so glad I do not espouse such black and white thinking! I would be so anxious all the time!
I think you'd be surprised with how peaceful it would be.
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

Post by Ian »

i agree. thanks, steve.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

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Those scriptures do nothing to resolve the contradiction you presented.
I think you'd be surprised with how peaceful it would be.
I have actually tried black and white thinking for a period of my life, believe it or not. It was awful. So thanks, but no thanks. Never again.
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

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Korihor: Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers. How do ye know of their surety? Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see;

(Alma 30:14-15)
Alma: Why do ye speak against all the prophecies of the holy prophets?

(Alma 30:22)
Korihor: Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words. Ye say that this people is a free people. Behold, I say they are in bondage. Ye say that those ancient prophecies are true. Behold, I say that ye do not know that they are true. ...

Yea, they durst not make use of that which is their own lest they should offend their priests, who do yoke them according to their desires, and have brought them to believe, by their traditions and their dreams and their whims and their visions and their pretended mysteries, that they should, if they did not do according to their words, offend some unknown being, who they say is God...

(Alma 30:23-24, 28)
Alma: But, behold, I have all things as a testimony that these things are true; and ye also have all things as a testimony unto you that they are true; and will ye deny them? Believest thou that these things are true? Behold, I know that thou believest, but thou art possessed with a lying spirit, and ye have put off the Spirit of God that it may have no place in you; but the devil has power over you, and he doth carry you about, working devices that he may destroy the children of God.

(Alma, Alma 30:41-42)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

Post by Ian »

thanks, steve. also, "black and white" can be discussed here.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

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Since no one is thanking me for my efforts, I shall be here pretending you are all appreciative of my well thought out and logical arguments and quotes ^_^
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

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The world says, No, he has no right; I am my own master; I am an independent being; I will take my own course, etc. Some of the Latter-day Saints almost say the same thing; not quite, but they would like to get near it. “I am a free man; I will be damned if I don’t do as I please, etc.” Well, I will tell you another part of that story. You will be damned if you do act as you please, unless you please to do and to keep the laws of God. ...

Where there is not a feeling of obedience, the Spirit of God will be withdrawn. People cannot retain it and be in rebellion against the authorities and counsels of the church and kingdom of God.

What is a man’s duty here? It is obedience to the oracles of God that are in our midst; and so long as we keep the commandments of God, we need not fear any evil; for the Lord will be with us in time and in eternity.

(President John Taylor, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor, Ch. 4 Obedience, a Sacred Duty)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Ian
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

Post by Ian »

betsy, most of your comments in this discussion have been false, misleading, irreverent, illogical or poorly thought out, but thank you for contributing.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

Post by Betsy »

Ian, one could say the same thing about your contributions.
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

Post by Ian »

yes, the difference is that most people would disagree with you.
so let it be written... so let it be done.
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

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I want to say to my brethren and sisters that [the President of the Church] is our leader, he is our law-giver in the Church and Kingdom of God. He is called to this office; it is his prerogative to tell this people what to do, and it is our duty to obey the counsel that he has given to-day to the sisters and the brethren. We, as a people, should not treat lightly this counsel, for I will tell you in the name of the Lord, and I have watched it from the time I became a member of this Church, there is no man who undertakes to run counter to the counsel of the legally authorized leader of this people that ever prospers, and no such man ever will prosper.

According to the ancient practice we learn that [shepherds] always went forward and prepared the way, so that there could be no danger in advance but what the shepherd would learn of in time to save the sheep. If [the sheep] are allowed to run by the shepherd, the wolves are apt to catch them and destroy them, and the very moment that men in this kingdom attempt to run ahead or cross the path of their leaders, no matter in what respect, the moment they do this they are in danger of being injured by the wolves.

This is a subject upon which I have thought a great deal, and I have gained a little useful knowledge during my experience by watching the conduct of men, and I have never in my life known it to fail, that when men went contrary to the counsel of their leaders, … they always became entangled and suffered a loss by so doing.

Now whatever I might have obtained in the shape of learning, by searching and study respecting the arts and sciences of men, whatever principles I may have imbibed during my scientific researches, yet if the prophet of God should tell me that a certain principle, or theory which I might have learned was not true, I do not care what my ideas might have been, I should consider it my duty, at the suggestion of my file leader to abandon that principle or theory. …

I have seen men in the days of Joseph bring up principles, and read and teach, and advocate theories when the prophet would say “it is not right to do so, they are not true.” Those men would still argue, maintain their position, and they would write in defence of their theories when the prophet condemned them, and they would say “we have no faith in your theory, nor in the system you present.”

The very moment a man does that he crosses the path of the servant of God who is set to lead the way to life and salvation. This is one thing that the Elders should carefully avoid. The fact is there are a great many things taught in the building up of this kingdom which seem strange to us, being contrary to our traditions, and are calculated to try men. Brother Joseph used a great many methods of testing the integrity of men, and he taught a great many things which in consequence of tradition required prayer, faith and a testimony from the Lord before they could be believed by many of the Saints. …

With regard to crossing the path of any man who may be appointed to lead us, I will say we never should do it, and I do not care what our feelings and views may be upon the subject as far as our traditions and education are concerned.

If God has anything to reveal, he will reveal it to that man who stands at the head. … There is no other plan, no other system by which to guide and govern men in this kingdom, only that which has been established by the revelations of God in the order of His church and kingdom, and that is for the head to lead, counsel and govern in all dispensations in which the will of God is revealed to man.

(President Wilford Woodruff, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, Ch. 19: Following the Living Prophet)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

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Among the Latter-day Saints, the preaching of false doctrines disguised as truths of the gospel, may be expected from people of two classes, and practically from these only; they are:

First—The hopelessly ignorant, whose lack of intelligence is due to their indolence and sloth, who make but feeble effort, if indeed any at all, to better themselves by reading and study; those who are afflicted with a dread disease that may develop into an incurable malady—laziness.

Second—The proud and self-vaunting ones, who read by the lamp of their own conceit; who interpret by rules of their own contriving; who have become a law unto themselves, and so pose as the sole judges of their own doings. More dangerously ignorant than the first.

Beware of the lazy and the proud. ...

When visions, dreams, tongues, prophecy, impressions or any extraordinary gift or inspiration conveys something out of harmony with the accepted revelations of the Church or contrary to the decisions of its constituted authorities, Latter-day Saints may know that it is not of God, no matter how plausible it may appear. Also they should understand that directions for the guidance of the Church will come, by revelation, through the head. All faithful members are entitled to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for themselves, their families, and for those over whom they are appointed and ordained to preside. But anything at discord with that which comes from God through the head of the Church is not to be received as authoritative or reliable.

(President Joseph F. Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, Ch. 13: Stand by the Truth Lest You Be Deceived)
When God can do what he will with a man, the man may do what he will with the world.     ~George MacDonald
Betsy
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Re: When Does A Prophet Speak As A Prophet?

Post by Betsy »

"most people?" Have you taken polls, pray tell?
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