Old Testament and Pearl of Great Price

[Tuly]

I'm enjoying this year's curriculum in Sunday School. Can I ask a question which I think I know the answer but am not totally sure? In Moses 7:27-35 who is Enoch conversing with Heavenly Father and/or Christ? Please give reasons to answer.

27 And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.
28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?
29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?
30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;
31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?
32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;
33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;
34 And the afire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.
35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

[Edward]

Enoch is talking to the Savior, but in this case the Savior is speaking as though he were the Father. Almost without exception, whenever there is conversation with deity it is with Jehovah, speaking on behalf of the Father. The principle is that of Divine Investiture of Authority. Christ has the authority speak, act, and receive as though he were God the Father; in fact ever since the Fall, the Father has interacted with His children through the Son. Because of Mankind's fallen circumstances, we cannot enjoy the blessings of God the Father's presence, and this will continue to be so until the Earth has run its course and the great and Final Judgment is taken place. Only rarely, on the most important occasions and concurrent with singular events, will the Father himself address His children, and then only to introduce His Son, through whom His will is made manifest.

[Tuly]

Good point Edward. However how is it that in Elder Holland's talk - The Grandeur of God -
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... ceId=91d2- he points out:

How grateful we are for all the scriptures, especially the scriptures of the Restoration, that teach us the majesty of each member of the Godhead. How we would thrill, for example, if all the world would receive and embrace the view of the Father so movingly described in the Pearl of Great Price.

There, in the midst of a grand vision of humankind which heaven opened to his view, Enoch, observing both the blessings and challenges of mortality, turns his gaze toward the Father and is stunned to see Him weeping. He says in wonder and amazement to this most powerful Being in the universe: “How is it that thou canst weep? … Thou art just [and] merciful and kind forever; … Peace … is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?”

Looking out on the events of almost any day, God replies: “Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands. … I gave unto them … [a] commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood. … Wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?”

[Tuly]

Another question I have is found in Moses 8. In Moses 8:23-24 we read -

23 And it came to pass that Noah continued his preaching unto the people, saying: Hearken, and give heed unto my words;
24 Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you; nevertheless they hearkened not.

I know that there were priesthood ordinances at that time. However if Christ had not been born yet and the gift of the Holy Ghost was given to us after Christ, did these ordinances take place before Christ was born since Noah says "even as our fathers"?

[Edward]

Actually, the gift of the Holy Ghost had been given since the days of Adam; it was not first given "after Christ." The giving of the gift of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentacost was the first time in that dispensation that it had been given. But dispensations since the days of Adam had also had the gift of the Holy Ghost, just as they had baptism and all the other ordinances; yes, even the temple ordinances. It was not until the days of Moses that the lesser law was introduced; before then all of the ordinances of the Gospel were in action, from Adam to Enoch to Noah to Abraham, etc.

[Tuly]

In Genesis, Moses and Abraham we read the same scripture.

Genesis 2:23-24

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

I feel that this scripture is often misunderstood because many feel it says to "cleave unto your spouse" and sever your parents relationship. What I find most interesting is the subtle way of mentioning a Heavenly Mother, am I wrong to suggest that? Who was Adam's father and mother?

[Tuly]

I'll take it that no one knows the answer to the past question. I wanted to ask about Genesis 6:4

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that,

Where did they come from? Giants "also after that"?

Also in Genesis 7:2-3

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

All this time I always thought they came by two's. but sevens?

I'm sorry if these seem like petty questions, but the answers give me a full picture of those times.

I should start a new post for the next question, but this is from the new Gospel Principles manual
Chapter 3

Satan and his followers fought against Jesus Christ and His followers. The Savior’s followers “overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11)

Again, I think I know the answer but what is meant by "the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony".

[Bryn]

The word cleave has two meanings. Interestingly, both meanings are the exact opposite of each other (according to online sources and my Oxford dictionary). When we're told to cleave to our spouses, we know that the meaning is that we should cling or adhere to them (one of the meanings of the word). I wonder if the other meaning of the word still kind of floats around in our heads when we read this passage (the other meaning being to cut, or divide asunder). We may incorrectly be left with two images in our heads: one of clinging to our spouses, and the other of severing a bond with...something. I wonder if this is what leads some people to think that they are somehow commanded to divide themselves from there parents. This misconception makes no sense for a handful and reasons. One, we are told to leave our father and mother;we are not told in any way to cut all ties with them, or even some ties with them. If we look at Adam and Eve's relationship with the Father, they were given commandments that bring them back into the presence of Heavenly Parents, were they would make their eternal abode. If anything, we should think that we are to try to have a stronger relationship with our parents, if Adam and Eve are a role model to us. Furthermore, one of the ten commandments if to honor our father and our mother. Cutting relations with them does not achieve that. Lastly, there are many examples in the scriptures of people who maintained their relationships with their parents after marriage. Nephi, for example, still looked at his father as the patriarch of the family. The sons of Israel lived with their parents (except Joseph for a few years, for obvious reasons, though he did in the end live with his father). Joseph Smith lived with family too. Nowhere is there mention of them trying to distance themselves physically or emotionally from their parents, or the rest of their family, for that matter (Joseph of Egypt being an exception, though he himself wanted that proximity) because they were commanded to leave, just for the sake of leaving.

Well, Caleb's crying, so that's all I can say about it for now.

[Edward]

I'll take it that no one knows the answer to the past question. I wanted to ask about Genesis 6:4
...
Where did they come from? Giants "also after that"?
...
All this time I always thought they came by two's. but sevens?
...
Again, I think I know the answer but what is meant by "the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony".

Well first of all, we know that there were indeed giants, but we don't know enough about them to venture any kind of explanation as to who they were or where they came from. But when it says "and after that," it's not talking about giants, but about the sons of God, as you find if you keep on reading the rest of the verse. Also, of clean beasts such as cattle, sheep, and goats, there were indeed seven of each kind on the Ark. This was supposedly to provide for Noah's family on the voyage and to ensure healthy herds when the Ark finally landed. It's just that we always assume it was only two because of popular pictures and other common depictions; it is, however, in the original Old Testament account that there were seven of all 'clean' beasts.

As for the Blood of the Lamb and testimony, those are always how we overcome Satan. Our faith allows us to believe in and receive strength from the Atonement, through which we overcome sin, and thus, Satan. Even before we came to this world we depended on the Atonement to save us from Satan's power; it is after all an eternal and infinite Atonement, which effected salvation and power even before the world was.

[Tuly]

These next verses in Genesis 22:20-23 introduce us to Rebekah who would eventually marry Issac. What I love is her two uncles Huz and Buz!

20 ¶ And it came to pass after these things, that it was told Abraham, saying, Behold, Milcah, she hath also born children unto thy brother Nahor;
21 Huz his firstborn, and Buz his brother, and Kemuel the father of Aram,
22 And Chesed, and Hazo, and Pildash, and Jidlaph, and Bethuel.
23 And Bethuel begat Rebekah: these eight Milcah did bear to Nahor, Abraham’s brother.

In Genesis 21:9-13

9 ¶ And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham’s sight because of his son.
12 ¶ And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

I know that Ishmael became a nation. Did Ishmael partake of the Abrahamic Covenant also?
I also noticed that Noah's covenant is partly because of the covenant that God made to Enoch. We really don't talk about Enoch's covenant enough, in my opinion.

[Tuly]

In Deuteronomy 32:49-52

49 Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession:
50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:
51 Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.
52 Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel.

What exactly did Moses trespass??

[Ian]

they were wandering in a place called kadesh with no water, they came to a rock called meribah, moses hit the rock and water came out, but he did not give the credit to God. for that reason moses could not enter the promised land.

[Tuly]

Thanks Ian. I think it is interesting that the OT teacher's manual does not cover this event in Moses life.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 94610aRCRD

[Ian]

i'm looking at numbers 20 and it says that God told moses to "speak" to the rock, but instead moses "smote" the rock. in this way, i guess moses took credit for the miracle, instead of giving credit to God. i'm not sure why this would be left out of the manual, i also tried to find a reference to this story but couldn't find it.

[Tuly]

I realize that we can cover just so much of the Old Testament in a year. I'm grateful we will cover as much of Isaiah as possible. Too bad we will miss all of Esther. I have loved reading Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. Here is some worthwhile scripture one might miss from Proverbs. Proverbs 6:16-19

16 ¶ These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

I noticed the word "froward" a lot in proverbs. Froward means perverse. In Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 I found new insight to these scriptures.

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

To me, this helps me understand much more our purpose in this earth. I don't know how many times I have read these scriptures and how many times I have missed the point of them. It is so beautifully written.