Carl Jung

[James]

Here is what Alex was talking about when he said he could see disgust on people's faces. There are several links on the research of Paul Ekman who criticized famous anthropologist Margaret Mead who claimed that facial expressions are culturally based. Ekman argued that expressions are universal to humans (and are linked to muscles in the face) while granting that gestures may be cultural.
http://www.paulekman.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ekman



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie_to_Me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/ ... ys/smiles/

[James]

This is not about temperament theory or typing but I still decided to put it here.

[James]

Link


Link

[James]

Link

[Ian]

here is what our faces looked like while alex was talking.

first it was like this:

then it was like this:

then it was like this:

then it was like this:

[John]

Well,
Mr. Eckman certainly has amassed a list of credentials with which many people and institutions seem to be impressed.
I wonder how many of those seemingly legitimizing credentials are shared by our visitor this weekend to warrant his proclaiming himself so vociferously an expert.
The self-proclamations of which we were so vividly made aware this weekend come from which academies of higher learning? From which credible clinical associations? From which legitimizing institutions? What authentic certifications authorize the certitude of his posturings as a scientist, or is his professed "expertise" to be solely attributed to his "attendance" at a series of "seminars" and to his "gifts"?
Once again, the veracity of any true science must be able to meet such scrutiny.
And please, let's not try to draw any parallels between our visitor and, shall we say, Galileo?

Secondly, I wonder if Mr Eckman's findings account for the marked intercultural differences in facial postures that any decent actor can detect and distinguish. Simple observation will note such distinctions. Perhaps this is a case of forests and trees. Or perhaps we are misapplying Mr. Eckman's research beyond his narrow field of mere lie-detection.

And as regards "micro-expressions," any sensitive human being is "expert" in the reading of these, and also frequently expert at misreading them. Take, as an example, the public misreading of the sincerity of certain Presidents past and present when caught in uncomfortable situations. That at which Mr. Eckman may be able to claim some expertise, is simply the documentation of these universally recognizable readings.
I saw no evidence this weekend of any one person's "higher" degree of expertise than another's in "reading" these obvious signals. I wonder, as well, if an exhaustive "study" of the "micro-expressions" of others might also, on the part of some, include the exhaustive practice of controlling them in one's self.

O what a tangled web we weave.

[John]

The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;
Little we see in nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
The sea that bares her bosom to the moon;
The winds that will be howling at all hours,
And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers;
For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
It moves us not. - Great God! I'd rather be
A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea;
Or hear old Triton blow his wreathed horn.
-William Wordsworth-

[Angela]

Ian's post was quite accurate with my feelings. Although it was much more humorous to see it presented in this way.

to ian

[Betsy]

What are his credentials?

[Betsy]

Oh wait, I was confusing Eckman and Alex. What credentials does Alex have?

Micah and I both think the "Lie to Me" show is interesting, because I think there are SOME ways to tell a person is lying. The cool thing about the show is how the main character uses his skills to "trap" the liar and justice is served.

But I are skeptical about the "science" behind it. It doesn't seem possible that this is an exact science, since we are failing to find the true liars from the fake ones all the time. We wouldn't need criminal law and courtroom sessions if we could spot right away if the person was lying, right?

But it does make for good television. It's kindof like the show "House" - it's about a doctor who is extremely skilled at diagnosing people's maladies and solving medical mysteries. (I have only watched like, one episode but Micah told me more about it) - it's a cool idea, but in the real world, nobody like that even exists. There isn't even a field of medicine for what he does. There are a lot of things unknown about human behavior, and it is a good endeavor to try to solve it. But it is also helpful to be realistic and understand the reality of our innocence when it comes to understanding people.

This is a topic important to us, obviously, because Micah deals with people and destructive behavior all the time now. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he could just open up his book and find out the cure for them? Or if he could just tell right away if they were lying in his face?

Unfortunately it is more complicated than that. But rather than feel constantly defeated, I think Micah is helping himself by realizing that even though he might never know what is wrong with a person, he can still try to help. And not put too many expectations on the table.

I will try to convince Micah to put his own two cents on here, since it is unfair to him for me to speak for him too much.

[margaret]

Hi everyone,

This is Margaret here, officially signing out from Huntingtonfamily.org's forums.
I see that mine and James' thoughts on many matters are being brushed off, even mocked.
I am not feeling "offended" in this particular moment, but i'm understanding now that people are not ready to hear my true thoughts.
Though, if you are earnest in your intent to learn stuffs, let's make a time to google+ or chat on the tellyhone

I pray in frequent for the growth and success for each wonderful member of this family. Although i am not easy to keep in touch with {as of right now}, i hope you keep in mind that i have YOU in mind. All i want is growth in love and appreciation for all of you. I love the gospel, I love our prophet, and I love and keep close to me the Savior, our Redeemer. I look forward to a brighter future!


Peace out, my favourite ones!

[Betsy]

I'm not Ian, and I am not going to mock you.

Nor am I going to brush aside what you say.

[micah]

Paul Ekman went to the University of Chicago, so he must pretty cool...
Anyway, I am not familiar with his work, but it seems really fascinating. I've heard about a study (I will have to look it up), that showed that psychiatrists were not better than the general public at detecting falsehood. Interestingly, law enforcement and people trained in lie detection (probably in programs inspired by Ekman's work) did much better, although still not 100%. It's not really something general psychiatrist are formally trained in. That said, I certainly do get lied to all the time, especially working in the ER. I actually think it could be very helpful to learn more about this practice, as it could sometimes guide decision making.
At the same time, I wonder about how accurate you could be. There are enough subtleties in human expression, and so many different mental states that it seems anywhere near 100% detection would be impossible. Humans are just so complex. Also, there are enough sociopaths out there to throw everything off, it would seem. Even so, I would love to have training to improve on my now pretty horrible lie detection.
And Margaret, I hope you don't leave for good!

[Steve]

Margaret: i'm understanding now that people are not ready to hear my true thoughts.

What are your true thoughts? I am certain that when we are converted to something, if it be truly delicious and holy, we will want to share it. As a missionary serving in Mexico, there were many times when my beliefs were mocked. Since I had a firm testimony in the source of my message, I persisted and continued to share what I knew was right. After all, I knew that what I was teaching was essential to those individuals' happiness. I could point to the words of holy prophets to support the things I was saying and the Holy Ghost testified to those people that those things were true.

Likewise, if what you believe is so critical to your life, even to the point that it is something you'd cling to over remaining close to your family, I think we better hear more about it. I am fascinated by anything that is of such worth that it would justify detaching yourself from a family channel in order to retain and preserve it.

So I encourage you to be bold with what you know to be right. If it be right, the Holy Ghost will assist your efforts to defend it.

[James]

Steve, I have a statement which is similar to Margaret's.
My experience so far with the discussion boards of this website has been negative. The posts have not been respectful, productive or edifying to me. They have been extremely emotionally taxing and have occupied much of my time in the last several months (especially my thorough posts on Jung). My efforts have been in vain. People do not understand us much better and the fire has only grown. The recent posts and parody were telling. You referenced your mission. I suppose I could do the same. Three words come to mind. "Leave and believe."
Until I feel that this website is a safe place where there is respect (not just ostensibly), fairness, productivity, edification, teaching and learning not one-sided but rather two ways, I do not see a reason to keep posting.