The Life Changing Magic of Tidying Up:...by Marie Kondo

[Ian]

are we still defending kondo? her book costs money, space and time. is it worth it?

kondo seems to be telling us that we must reduce the quantity of things, to enhance the quality of our lives. what's wrong with quantity? is quality more important than quantity?

quality is a direct function of quantity. a good library, for example, has good quality as well as good quantity of books. a good kitchen has good quality as well as good quantity of cookware. good parenting requires quality time as well as quantity time.

these are just a few examples. my point is, "quality over quantity" is a myth.

[Steve]

Ian: are we still defending kondo?

No, I'm defending a couple of topical principles. We didn't really have any other thread that talked about this sort of thing. It doesn't really matter to me who encourages the introspection, just so long as people are thinking about it—are conscious about it. These kinds of discussions are often just to invite people to think about why they do what they do. I know I've been served by a number of our discussions/debates over the years, not just because one perspective or another has entirely convinced me to adopt a specific position, but because it motivates me to try to articulate what was tacit at best. It provides me with the opportunity to evaluate my stance on things and helps me be more deliberate. The same applies here.

I have opinions on the subject of tidying and clutter, as you've seen. My thoughts on Kondo's book are at most a secondary consideration in this discussion.

a good library, for example, has good quality as well as good quantity of books.

I agree it must have a "good" quantity. However, a "good quantity" is not necessarily synonymous with "a lot." The same holds true regardless of whether we're talking about books or cookware, or even parenting. This isn't a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy where a certain number constitutes the answer to life, the universe, and everything.

Both quantity and quality are important considerations. But whereas better quality is almost always desirable, quantity is always tied to its context. More is not always better.

[Ian]

that's true, a good library may not need a lot of books, a good kitchen may not need a lot of cookware, and good parents may not need a lot of time with their children.

but what about great? a great library has a lot of books, a great kitchen has a lot of cookware, and great parents spend a lot of time with their children.

[Steve]

If by great, you mean "of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average," then yes. If by great, you mean "of ability, quality, or eminence considerably above the normal or average," then not necessarily.

Said Elder M. Russell Ballard in April 1987 (with fewer options than we have today):

Perhaps none need the principle of balance in their lives more than those who are driven toward accumulating “things” in this world. ... Remember, too much of anything in life can throw us off-balance. At the same time, too little of the important things can do the same thing. King Benjamin counseled “that all these things are done in wisdom and order” (Mosiah 4:27). ... Our main goal should be to seek “immortality and eternal life” (Moses 1:39). With this as our goal, why not eliminate from our lives the things that clamor for and consume our thoughts, feelings, and energies without contributing to our reaching that goal?

Elder Ballard would later warn those who "complicate their service with needless frills and embellishments that occupy too much time, cost too much money, and sap too much energy."

Notice then that there is room in our lives for things so long as those things contribute to our reaching our goal of immortality and eternal life. For instance, those things may be books that provide "words of wisdom" (much more likely if these are the "best books" versus any number of mediocre ones). I find, though, that there are far more warnings about distractions and balance than there are about concerns that we don't have enough things. Consequently, I try to keep these warnings in mind when making decisions about what to include and what to exclude from my short life. Tidiness and order can contribute to the balance we're pursuing. A house of learning and a house of glory are inherently grouped with a house of order.

I still have a long way to go, but as I said earlier, it's good to be conscious of it.

[Ian]

elder ballard also said, "quality is a direct function of quantity," so i don't believe he buys into the "quality over quantity" myth.

have you found any counsel to throw great books away, or any warnings to limit the number of great books in the home? surely we don't view great books as frills, embellishments or distractions.

[Steve]

I can absolutely provide some counsel about ditching great things. But first, I want to be sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that great things cannot be hindrances in our mortal lives?

EDIT: I will add that I appreciate that we're at least finally talking about "great books" rather than books in general.

[Betsy]

Here is an article in defense of clutter:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/style ... d=fb-share

From the article:

Never mind that their homes may be full of their own things. I want to know, now, that forever after, I will be watching down on them from the walls and the shelves, having somehow transmogrified myself into my stuff.

Honestly I wanted to appreciate her different point of view but by the end of the article I thought I was reading the ramblings of a mad person. Things are just things. You can't take it with you. SORRY!

And now here is some Seinfield on the topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfYzlSNHapA

[Ian]

i asked about counsel to throw away books.

i've been talking about great books all along. occasionally i'll just call them books.

regarding books, i would say that my vision of greatness has widened over the years. my list of great books doesn't stop growing.

i'll add hindrances and clutter to my list of words that are not synonymous with books.

[Steve]

Ok, let's simply focus on books then. So you are saying that great books cannot hinder us. Correct?

PS - Thanks for your reply, Betsy. Hi!

[John]

I appreciated Dominique Browning's point of view and enjoyed her facetiousness at the end. Funny, but I feel no shame being surrounded by lovely things and having so many people comment on the charm of our home when they come in. Of course, receiving such comments is not our motive, but I like living in a welcoming and stimulating home. I am fully aware that I won't be taking any books or art or pots or kitchen utensils or furniture or draperies or linens with me, but living with them has taught me to appreciate beauty and I am certain that my appreciation of the beauties of the life to come will have been enhanced by them.

I feel as though the current "propaganda of divestment" (a coinage of phrase I highly approve of) is simply this season's trendy face of the pharisee.

Chins (carefully groomed) are being worn very high this season.

[Steve]

Dad: I feel as though the current "propaganda of divestment" (a coinage of phrase I highly approve of) is simply this season's trendy face of the pharisee.

I think this may be true only when used to conceal an abundance of other critical flaws. Many will settle on those areas they feel give themselves some perceived advantage over others. An alcoholic may emphasize the importance of forgiveness and downplay the hazards of addiction. A man with a quick temper prefers just about any other topic over self-mastery. When a man or woman touts reduction of distractions and materialism, but cringes at topics like scripture study, temple attendance, or what have you, there are obvious "pharisee tendencies" at play. The man or woman of God embraces all good things, however near to or far from they may be from the ideal. If an individual's zealous pursuit of one virtue distracts them from progressing in the rest, it's a problem.

The simple act of discussing a good thing, though, is, well, a good thing. It's no more pharisaical to discuss cleanliness, simplicity, and intentional living than it would be to discuss any of the other worthy topics we've covered on this forum. I don't believe I've given this a disproportionate amount of attention among covered topics. If it comes at the dismissal of other important things, we've strayed. If it were all we valued while ignoring prophetic priorities, we've strayed. The key is to consider the things shared and respond to them individually. We have plenty of help with such a process. As President Uchtdorf explains in his October 2010 address:

As we evaluate our own lives with a willing mind, we will see where we have drifted from the more excellent way. The eyes of our understanding will be opened, and we will recognize what needs to be done to purify our heart and refocus our life.

That is a simple matter between individuals and their Heavenly Father. I hope I've sufficiently emphasized that I do not pretend to be any authority on what constitutes a righteous inventory of material goods, nor do I dare prescribe some touted system for arriving at the appropriate number of possessions per square foot. I'm merely pointing to the trends in counsel I've discovered regarding eliminating distraction, maintaining a groomed and orderly appearance, and pursuing balance in all areas of our lives. If that has come across as arrogant or dismissive of others' views, I do apologize. My chin may indeed be shaved, but I do not consider myself better than anyone.

I just see this as a good topic and I enjoy talking about good things.

[Tuly]

Thank you Marie Kondo...for keeping this website somewhat active. We have been blessed to live in one home for almost 30 years. Our home has gone trough many transitions; the young family home, the young adolescent home and the home we have the pleasure of sharing with adult children. As children came and left we adjusted our little home to meet the needs of the family. Even when Edward brought 25 friends from college, we made it work. As small as our home is we always made room for those who needed a place to stay. A lot of Kondo's philosophy is about space, space for what? - to think more about how you don't have to clean your house as much others? to dance? to hear the echo of your voice? - Space is over rated - when you get used to too much space ( that can be debatable what is too much space) anything that intrudes it becomes an interruption, including people. I was reading about the disposable generation -
http://johncokeefe.com/2014/05/12/a-dis ... eneration/

The problem with this “buy new culture” is that we see the solution to all our problems as simply tossing out what we think is broken and buying new. It has become so much a part of our culture that we even do it with our marriages, our families and our kids. Yeah, if we think our kid is broken, we are quick to toss them out and get a new one.

Did you know that 7% of all homeless are unaccompanied minors (those under the age of 18 years old living without adult supervision)? 7%.

Is this off topic, I don't think so. Is this and extreme case scenario...most definitely. I don't worship the things I enjoy, but I certainly cherish them. What would Kondo think of food storage

[Steve]

Mom:A lot of Kondo's philosophy is about space, space for what? - to think more about how you don't have to clean your house as much others? to dance? to hear the echo of your voice?

No, you don't need to sit and think about the advantages. You simply have less to clean, which could give you more time to utterly waste, or it could give you more time to reach out to others. It's up to you how you use it.

Space is over rated - when you get used to too much space ( that can be debatable what is too much space) anything that intrudes it becomes an interruption, including people.

The same exact thing could be used as a logical argument against too many possessions. When you get used to too many things, anything that intrudes on those things can become an interruption, including people. Again, I hear more warnings about things displacing people than I've heard about voids displacing people. We often hear the phrase "crowding out" but I don't believe I've ever heard the warning about having so little that you get distracted.

The problem with this “buy new culture” is that we see the solution to all our problems as simply tossing out what we think is broken and buying new.

The key difference between the topic as I've understood it and what this writer is presenting is that it's proposed that you don't dispose of things simply to replace them with more things. Nobody's proposing an endless cycle of consumerism. Quite the opposite actually.

What would Kondo think of food storage

I'm not sure. I think it might be worthwhile to move my thoughts out of this thread, though, because it appears that most still assume we're talking about Kondo.

[Betsy]

To me the main difference between Art majors and Art History majors are the same difference as "purgers" and "keepers". Both have value, both are important. There are some things I keep, but some things I absolutely positively MUST let go of.

[Edward]

Steve, what then makes something worth keeping? I know that some prophets such as Brigham Young. (post-pioneer trek), Joseph F. Smith, and Ezra Taft Benson had homes or offices filled with things, and they were, to some eyes, cluttered, but they were lovely and full of memory. I have seen pictures of them, and so there must be some worth to keeping things if those three men would live thusly. How does one judge what to treasure and what to toss?