How Much Should You Give Away?

[Ian]

we've been advised that the "surplus" of our earnings should be used for building up the kingdom and helping the needy. the difficult part is determining what constitutes surplus. it's up to us to figure that out. we also need to think about what it means to "build up the kingdom."

i seem to recall some talks by general authorities in which they said, in effect, that our charitable donations should "put a dent" in our standard of living. in other words, if we're not really giving anything up (in terms of our lifestyle, etc.), then we aren't giving enough away. and i think that if i'm living a "lavish lifestyle," i'm almost certainly being greedy with my money (which isn't my money at all, actually). it's one thing to save money for the future, or to pay for food for my family, etc., but it's another thing to use money to pay for a lavish lifestyle. i don't think there's any justification for that.

on the other hand, i think that if we're living "paycheck to paycheck," and paying tithing/fast offerings, we're doing our part in terms of building up the kingdom. for example, supporting a family is part of building up the kingdom.

i think it's all about what really matters to us. if i really care about other people, and not about money, i won't spend my money on a huge house or expensive cars. i might not even spend so much time away from my family accumulating that money. but that's easier said than done in the world today...

so to answer the initial question, you should give away all of your surplus to the church and to the needy.

[John]

The Lord makes it clear in scripture that he "delights in prospering his people." But it is also clear that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven; this, given the greed of the "natural man", he, being an enemy to God.

I think that a humble and thoughtful consideration of three passages from the Savior's mortal ministry are germane to the discussion. Two parables, and an actual episode from his life:

1. The parable of the widow's mite (as heretofore mentioned by Mom)
2. The parable of the talents ... money and personal management 101.
3. The story of the rich young man.

I think that an honest and humble personal self-appraisal in context of these teachings should be ample instruction to anyone and reveal the Lord's will to him to wisely and temperately manage his financial affairs, and "govern himself".

Additionally, we ought to "consider the Lilies of the field."
Additionally, we ought not begrudge others their prosperity.
Additionally, we should feed the poor and clothe the naked insofar as we are able and in accordance with revealed methods administered by the Lord's Kingdom (i.e. the church).
Additionally, we should be constantly on guard against our own tendencies toward selfishness.
Additionally, we want to consider the previously proffered wise counsel in this thread.
Additionally, I think I'm preaching to the choir.

I will, however, also offer an observation that whenever this subject arises (as it frequently does) in Sunday School, in quorum instruction, in firesides, etc. ... people's dander inevitably rises, and defensiveness almost always accompanies such dialogue. It gives one pause when people get so touchy. I have never been present in such discussions after the inevitable "camel-eye of needle" allusion, that someone doesn't hastily and vigorously say something along the lines of "Now, wait a minute! If I am rich, I can do a lot of good for the church ... etc. etc. etc. blahblahblah"
And it goes on from there, usually very heatedly.
I dream of one day seeing all heads in such a setting nod in humble agreement that true consecration acknowledges that everything we have and are is the Lord's, and if I am following the dictates of the spirit, he will guide the flow of that portion of his inheritance that currently is my stewardship.

"Let the Holy Spirit guide.
Let him teach us what is true.
He will testify of Christ,
Light our minds with heaven's view.

Let the Holy Spirit guard;
Let his whisper govern choice.
He will guide us safely home
If we listen to his voice."

[Ian]

an interesting side note, w/r/t the rich young man, is that he was not asked to simply give away all that he had, but rather, to sell all that he had, and distribute to the poor. likewise, we aren't required or expected to just give away all of our possessions to the next homeless on the street, though we should "distribute" our surplus to the poor (but i should add, as per king benjamin's counsel, that we shouldn't hold back from giving to people simply because we suspect that they won't use the money properly). i think the word "distribute" implies at least some degree of care... i mean, we should be careful when we make donations. donating to the church humanitarian/education/etc. funds is a good way to go...

also, in the case of the rich young man, i'm not sure that he was asked to give away everything that he had. he was asked to sell it all, but maybe not distribute it all? i'm not sure. certainly, he was advised to give up his lavish lifestyle, and probably to distribute just about everything to the poor. the only point i'm making is that we are justified in using honestly-earned money to provide the necessities of life to our family... beyond that, the "surplus," should probably be given to people who need it more than us.

edit: i also get the feeling from the story of the rich young man that he made the mistake of accumulating too much. it wouldn't have been so hard to sell all that stuff if he hadn't adopted that lifestyle in the first place. hence the savior's statement that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. i think a lot of members of the church like to think of themselves as "above" that statement.

[Steve]

I'm sure that I'm not alone when I say that I appreciate these discussions. It's neat to hear good advice and important reminders from family. Thanks, as always.

The most controversial part of this issue seems to lie with what the "necessities of life" entail for any given family. I think that we just have to prepare ourselves and decide now that come what may, rain or sunshine, our hearts are fixed on the Lord's will and that all we have is at His disposal. Developing such humility and holding fast to priorities forged by covenants will help us realize that the world can't make much of a counter-offer.

Eternal life with my family...what could be better? (latin chef accent required)

[John]

Additionally:
Mom wanted me to make mention of the applicability of one of our favorite moments in film ... from the unabashedly romantic (and appropriately titled) I Know Where I'm Going - high on our "recommended monthly viewing" list -

"Oh ... we're not poor! We just don't have any money."

[Oh! Susanna]

Warning: very lengthy reply ensues.

Okay, I will admit that this is a touchy subject for me because it is true: Being wealthy IS difficult. But having been poor, I wouldn't go back. Everybody has those "If I had the money" items on their list in their heads. And then when you do have the money...well, the rest goes without saying. You can ALWAYS spend as much as you make. And when you have the money, you are always expected to pay for dinner, etc. (not that I have ever resented this or felt the least bit stingy, It's just another one of my excuses for why we spend so much money). Also, we would love to be able to save enough to retire early so that we can serve missions AND travel. But, that said, here are some things that have made answering that question easier for us:

Budgeting for charity is just as important as budgeting for everything else. There is never even a question about the money that we have set aside every month for humanitarian, mission, perpetual education, etc. being dipped into. That gets paid out first, just like tithing.

We try to follow the advice given in the conference talk referenced by Ian, that if it doesn't hurt it doesn't count.

We also remember King benjamin's address and when we hear of or see someone in need, the quesion isn't "should we give"? but "how much"?

There have been times, however, when the spirit has directed us not to give, and we haven't always been given a reason, either.

So when it all comes down to it, the Spirit is always the most important thing.

I guess your original question related more to what is sufficient for our needs? If we are talking about what we REALLY need, it's much less than any of us are willing to admit, and where does that leave us with wants?

I'm very comfortable and at the same time very uncomforable with my relatively newfound wealth, and I still struggle with this question.

We all have things we like to spend money on.

If someone who has barely enough likes to buy Hello Kitty trinkets, and someone who has a lot has a fancy car, but they are both spending the same percentage of their income, who is the better person?

and how fancy does a car have to be to be an evil? For instance, Ian, your car may not be a Porsche, but it's a much nicer car than is owned by the majority of the rest of the world, for those that even own cars.

And what about my desire to trade in my minivan for an SUV, so that my family can access more easily the wild places that we like to go that bring us so much family togetherness (see the proclamation on the family ). Okay, so I could buy a ten year old suburban for a fraction of the price of the car that I really want, but the gas mileage would be horrendous.

I'm not really going to buy the car anyway. At least not this year.

But should I feel guilty about the trip to Nepal that I'm planning for our twelth anniversary?

Am I jeopardizing my place in the Kingdom?

I think we should recognize that everything we have comes from Heavenly Father, is not really ours, and SHOULD be ready to give up everything if necessary, but in the meantime does that mean we shouldn't have anything that isn't absolutely necessary, even if we can afford it?

And should we feel guilty about the movie projector and the stage in our newly finished basement?

Karoake party at the Malones!!!

[Ian]

[Tuly]

I don't know should you feel guilty about all that? how much entertainment do we need to have wholesome recreation activities with our families? -

[Oh! Susanna]

that was a joke-

I don't believe ANY money is necesssary to have wholesome recreational activities. The question is, how much is okay? Everybody spends money for fun, and Bavarian apple tarts don't fit into the necessicities of life, but are we supposed to live without them because we don't need them, and so many people in China don't have them?

[Oh! Susanna]

BTW, Ian, I had to look up that emoticon because I didn't even know what it meant. I don't even understand why you are disappointed with me. Tearfully waiting your reply

[Aunt Betsy]

I'm thinking maybe Ian was joking. Say you were joking, Ian. You were joking, right?

[Ian]

i wouldn't read into the emoticon "descriptions" too much, i'm the one that labeled them (so it was kind of arbitrary, and i haven't been paying much attention to the labels).

however i put a picture of a shaking head guy because that kind of describes the way i reacted to the post. i also considered this one...



...just because i like that emoticon. to be honest, as i was reading the post, i thought it had kind of a posh, paris hilton flavor to it. it's hard to tell which part you were joking about, so i'll assume now that pretty much the whole thing was in jest. either that, or you're being passive aggressive.

anyway, with respect to the "wealth" topic, being poor isn't all that bad is it? not all poor people are sad people with wish lists. and i don't think it matters too much whether or not someone feels guilty for living a lavish lifestyle. they're just missing out.

the question that began this thread was "how much should you give away." the more we give, the better off we'll be... but usually the Lord won't force our hand, so there's no use waiting for the day when our bishop tells us to give everything up. what if that day never comes? i think we're all willing to "give everything up someday," but the hard question is whether we actually do give stuff up at those times when we're blessed with the opportunity to give.

[Oh! Susanna]

we do have a stage and a projector in our basement. I do want an SUV, but I'm not going to buy one. I would love to go to Nepal, and places all over the globe, and someday I just might. I don't spend lots of money on my hair and nails every month, and I've never shopped at bloomingdale's, but we do frequently eat out. I never minded being poor and I don't mind having money. I do miss the simplicity of being poor, but since the responsibility of wealth seemed to come around the same time for me as the responsibility of being a grownup, I don't really know if it's wealth or just responsibility that's harder for me.

All I know is that I've never begrudged anyone anything that is "mine" (knowing very well where everything that we have been blessed with really comes from), and we do make giving a priority. But there are many fun things that a person can do with money.

And I was pretty darn serious about the karaoke party, or any party for that matter!

[Oh! Susanna]

And I didn't say that you had to be sad to have a wish list. And I have nothing against poor people having been one myself. But I simply won't believe you if you tell me that there isn't something that you would like to have that you can't afford, even if you wouldn't really buy it had you the money. And come on, Mr. clothes horse, is buying designer clothing at a bargain department store in New York City more virtuous, just because they cost less? What about the third world child labour that may have gone into the making of those clothes? And is illegally downloading copyrighted materials for free better because you could spend the money on the poor instead? And if I'm passive aggressive, so are you (dang it, I can't find the emoticon with the tongue sticking out, you need to add that one).

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Okay I'm done. I'll drop it, I promise. Unless you keep going...

[John]

The question, if I understand it correctly, is how much to give, rather than, "what will people think of me based on how much I choose to give." For myself, again, I don't in the least begrudge anyone their prosperity. I am grateful that the Lord delights to prosper his people. I am steward only over what the Lord so abundantly has given me, and have no inclination to assess anyone else's stewardship. Maybe if I were a bishop, I might be compelled to do so.
That being said, I try to unencumber myself and mine from the burden of concern for what others, from their distance, have no accurate means of determining. What they think is not germaine to my dialogue with the Lord regarding my stewardship.